In this episode of the Contractor Growth Network podcast, Logan Shinholser and Aaron Horner deliver a “State of the Union” on remodeling marketing — a one-year update to episode 466, which laid out CGN’s complete six-step strategy for attracting and landing ideal clients. The premise is simple: digital marketing moves in dog years, and enough has changed in twelve months — a cooling market, the rise of AI search, the collapse of yesterday’s SEO tricks — that the playbook needs a refresh.
Logan and Aaron start by separating what’s stable from what’s shifting. The lower steps of the framework barely move: understanding your ideal client and articulating your unique selling proposition is strategy, and the reasons someone remodels a kitchen today aren’t much different than they were twenty years ago. What moves fast is everything higher up — the website, and especially the traffic layer, which is at the mercy of Google’s algorithm and a customer journey that AI is actively reshaping. They walk through the difference between intention-based traffic (people actively searching for you, the modern Yellow Pages) and demographic-based traffic (getting in front of the right people before they’re looking), and why buying decisions have stretched out as the market cooled from its post-COVID peak.
The heart of the episode is what to actually do about it. Logan explains why AI writing reads like AI — not the buzzwords, but unnaturally uniform sentence length and a habit of saying a lot about nothing — and argues that as clean, competent copy becomes effortless for everyone, the only durable edge is proof of real work. That reframes the ideal client avatar away from the generic “40s upper-middle-class family” every competitor also claims, toward one real past client with a rich, specific backstory captured in a 45-minute interview. From that single project, CGN builds a featured project page (a five-minute, beautifully formatted mini case study), then spins the same material into a web of supporting content: informational blogs on things like appliance garages, cost pages that pair a summary with real linked examples, and “job-to-be-done” posts aimed at the questions people ask AI rather than Google. The goal is topical authority and content that AI can’t simply summarize away. Finally, on the demographic side, those finished projects become “digital yard signs” — social ads tightly targeted to the streets around the home, introducing the company to the exact neighbors most likely to want the same thing.
If you’re a remodeler running a handful of disconnected tactics without a strategy, or trying to figure out how to use AI without sounding like everyone else, this episode gives you a current, grounded framework — and a clear reason to make your best projects the center of it.
Key Takeaways
The Foundation Hasn’t Changed — the Traffic Layer Has
→ Steps 1–3 (ideal client, USP, branding/media) are strategy and shift slowly.
→ Steps 4–6 (website, intention traffic, demographic traffic) change fast because they ride Google and social algorithms.
→ Why someone remodels hasn’t changed in 20 years; how they find and vet you has.
The Market Slowed, So the Tactics Have to Move
→ The post-COVID seller’s market has swung toward buyers taking their time.
→ One client had ~$600K sitting in design from people who’d normally have closed quickly.
→ Slower decisions mean marketing has to work harder to build certainty.
AI Search Killed the Old SEO Shortcuts
→ ChatGPT and Google leaned heavily on Reddit as a “trustworthy” source.
→ Marketers immediately gamed it with paid subreddit posts, and its value got slashed.
→ “By the book” is the slowest lane but the one that weathers the algorithm storms.
AI Writing Reads Like AI for Structural Reasons
→ It’s the uniform ~10–15 word sentences, not just words like “delve.”
→ AI avoids repeating phrases, so everything feels too smooth and even.
→ It over-describes emotion and leaves no room for human interpretation.
Proof Is the Only Real Edge Left
→ AI has eradicated sloppy writing — competent copy is now the baseline, not a differentiator.
→ What AI can’t fake is a specific real project done for a specific real client.
→ Seed AI with real examples and backstory, and even AI-assisted copy feels genuine.
One Project Becomes a Whole Content Engine
→ A 45-minute interview on a single project yields a featured project page plus dozens of supporting pieces.
→ Informational blogs, cost pages, and job-to-be-done posts all link back to the “money pages.”
→ The same project also feeds podcasts, YouTube, and social — one job, endless content.
Write Content AI Can’t Summarize Away
→ AI overviews now answer simple questions (like “what does X cost?”) before anyone clicks.
→ Visual, example-rich pages (style galleries, real project costs) are harder to flatten into a blurb.
→ Topical authority — covering every facet of a service — signals expertise to Google and AI alike.
Finished Projects Are “Digital Yard Signs”
→ Social ads can target the streets immediately around a completed project.
→ The goal isn’t “buy now” — it’s introducing yourself with proof you work in their area.
→ Stack enough of them and neighbors repeatedly see you doing work for people just like them.
Memorable Quotes
“A year on earth is like seven years in the digital space.”
“By the book is great. But by the book takes the longest.”
“AI writing has basically eradicated sloppy writing.”
“What AI will do is it will try to articulate the emotion too much and not leave room for human interpretation.”
“I would have written a shorter letter if I had the time.”
“Nobody else has those photos with that story online.”
Actionable Advice
✅ Revisit Your Foundation First: Nail your ideal client, USP, and branding before chasing traffic tactics — the base still carries everything.
✅ Pick One Real Client, Not an Avatar: Choose a favorite past client in a market and project type you want more of, and build around their real story.
✅ Interview, Don’t Form-Fill: Capture featured projects through a 45-minute conversation to surface the rich detail a form never will.
✅ Build a Featured Project Page: Condense each project into a beautiful five-minute mini case study — the hub everything else points to.
✅ Spin One Project Into Many: Turn that interview into informational blogs, cost pages, and job-to-be-done posts that all link back to the money pages.
✅ Write What AI Can’t Summarize: Use visuals, style galleries, and real linked examples so an AI overview can’t replace the click.
✅ Plant Digital Yard Signs: Run tightly targeted social ads around each finished project to introduce yourself to the neighbors with proof.
Aaron Horner
About a year ago, we released episode 466, which was an overview of your company’s entire marketing strategy. It was a high level overview of everything that you should be doing to consistently be attracting and landing your ideal clients. Well, now we’re about a year later and things have changed, both in the market and with AI. And so Logan’s coming on the show to talk about everything that we’ve seen change with all of our remodeling clients over the past year and what we are changing to our marketing strategy. So to make sure that our clients are staying ahead of the game when it comes to showing up and being the company that people trust, even in this new era of AI.
Aaron Horner
So even if you’re not using CGN as your marketing company, this is a helpful episode for anybody that feels like they’re doing kind of random marketing tactics and they’re trying a few different things, but they don’t have an overall strategy and they’re not sure what to do. How do they incorporate AI into the business, how they do that while still maintaining trust with their clients? Today we’re answering all of those questions and sharing. Here’s exactly what we’re doing with our remodeling clients as a result of what we’ve seen,.
Logan Shinholser
Hey everyone. Welcome back to the Contractor Growth Network podcast. I’m Logan Shinholser and I’m joined by Aaron Again. So we’re going to be revisiting an older episode that just… you know… the top right is it? Does that show low battery?
Aaron Horner
No, that’s a recording design.
Logan Shinholser
Oh, I’m an idiot. Should we start over?
Aaron Horner
No, that’s cool. That’s a little behind the scenes for people.
Logan Shinholser
Oh, okay. All right, Cool. All right, we’ll keep it going. So we’re gonna be revisiting an episode that is one of our most popular ones. It’s all like the six steps of, like, marketing your remodeling company. And the reason that we’re doing this is we recorded that one a year ago. And in the world of digital marketing, it moves so quickly that it’s like dog years. We’re like a year on earth is like seven years in, like the digital space. So this stuff constantly is updated and changed, and there’s certain things that we want to dive into that are like, hey, this stuff is still the exact same and it probably will be the exact same for a very long time. And then these are some of the things that have updated since then.
Logan Shinholser
And we’re going to kind of put a bit of A a different spin on today and focus on how to probably make that last episode, the 466 one, a little bit easier to go through and comprehend.
Aaron Horner
Okay, so am I right in thinking this is kind of like a State of the Union, like cgns, like, hey, just so you guys are aware, here’s what we’re seeing as far as marketing. Here’s working. Here’s our updated marketing strategy. Just so everybody’s aware. Working with us, not working with us. Here’s what we’re seeing is working best right now.
Logan Shinholser
Yeah, we like live in this stuff a lot. And it’s a lot of like deciphering what’s real, what’s not real. There’s a lot of like, especially like I see a lot of like LinkedIn and Facebook where people like, oh, I, I fired my entire operations, you know, department, or I find my whole marketing department and now I just have like AI run the whole thing. And then when you like dive into it, you realize like that person’s a one person company. Like they never actually had anybody. Yeah, but it’s good like clickbait stuff. But a lot of like what those tools are that they’re telling you, like, oh, you could do this for, you know, using AI.
Logan Shinholser
Like a lot of those things when you actually look at it, like I would say most of the time, because I’ll read through them most of the time. It’s better than nothing.
Aaron Horner
Yeah.
Logan Shinholser
But if you have some sort of operations or some sort of marketing department, it’s usually going to be very generic and kind of sloppy with how it’s approaching things. And it’s not actually like that beneficial. It’s more of a waste of time. But it’s a really good like buzz, clickbaity worthy post.
Aaron Horner
Sure.
Logan Shinholser
So hopefully today we’ll kind of dispel some of those as well.
Aaron Horner
Cool.
Logan Shinholser
Cool.
Aaron Horner
Okay.
Logan Shinholser
All right, so just kind of recap what 466 was and it’s the episode title or episode number. But like we reference it so much that it’s kind of just like synonymous with what it peak market. Yeah, yeah, you just know it. It’s six steps and it’s the same six steps that we’ve always really approached this with is step one is understanding who your ideal client is, what problems are, dealing with, what they really want. Basically it’s the whole premise of like why they’re going to be hiring you. And it’s not necessarily that they’re hiring you because you’re good at customer service. It’s. They have some sort of problem in their home that they want solved or fixed.
Aaron Horner
Yeah.
Logan Shinholser
So step two is going to be unique selling proposition. The biggest gripe I, I think I get from people is like, we don’t really do things necessarily super different from everybody else in my area. So a lot of it is more. So think of it as like if the IDO client avatar is like the problems that somebody’s facing, you’re now highlighting and articulating the solutions. So it doesn’t have to necessarily be unique. Sometimes it is unique. Sometimes you do things in a different way where you’re able to do things faster or you have access to a certain type of material, or you’re overall just better at design or better at project management.
Logan Shinholser
So it is a little bit more unique, but a lot of times it’s really just showing the certainty of being able to hire you specifically for that project and then go, wow, this is exactly what I want. I’m in.
Aaron Horner
Okay.
Logan Shinholser
So it doesn’t that necessarily have to be the, you know, unique and different than everybody else, but it has to basically show them like, if you have a problem, we will solve it. And here’s exactly how we will solve it.
Aaron Horner
Okay.
Logan Shinholser
Step three is going to be all coming down to media branding, basically. Do we have the right visuals associated with what we do for work? So it starts with your logo and your branding. So, you know, our take is kind of like the logo has to look good. It doesn’t have to be the most immaculate thing in this industry. You know, remodeling, design, build things that are more like, you know, restoration hardware. I don’t think has like a super sexy logo. It’s just an rh.
Aaron Horner
Yeah.
Logan Shinholser
So fancy font though. Right, right, font. But like the work itself kind of carries a lot of it. So in other trades, like home services, where it’s a lot more commoditized, then you need something that stands out a lot more.
Aaron Horner
Yeah.
Logan Shinholser
And it works really well if you have a ton of service vehicles on the road. But if you’re in the revaling space, you typically aren’t. You know, you maybe have a half a dozen vehicles on the road. You’re not going to have 50 vehicles on the road having something that stands out that much. Like it’s. I’m not saying it’s not important, it’s just not the end all be all. Like it would be in like a home service space.
Aaron Horner
Sure.
Logan Shinholser
Visuals also being photos, videos, design, renderings, anything that’s like a visual thing that gets somebody more bought into what you do that is the third step.
Aaron Horner
Okay. So we’re identifying your ideal client, their deeper problem. We’re finding basically the solutions that we can provide that answered those specific problems and then having media that backs that up. So it’s not just our words saying what we do, but now we’re proving it with our photos, our videos, our logo, our brand.
Logan Shinholser
Yeah, like the branding is separate from like the actual photos and videos because like the branding is more of like company focused while like the photos of, let’s say like the work, like photo is just like a medium, it’s just a way to capture something. But like headshots of the team that, you know, if you show off, you know, head, like a nice looking headshot where it looks like it was professionally done, everybody is smiling. That shows a happy team. Happy team is more trusting to be inside the home.
Aaron Horner
Yep.
Logan Shinholser
Photos of the work itself. We’ve, we’ve talked at length around good photos versus bad photos versus mediocre photos. And it’s almost as if like mediocre photos are like the kiss of death. Because it’s not bad enough that you’re like, oh, I have to make a big change, but it’s not good enough that’s going to move the needle with anybody. So yeah, photos are really just a medium of like capturing projects. And we’ll talk more about that today. But basically it’s like we need, as a marketing company, we like in this industry, we need to have great photos to be able to then sell what you do. Because the whole point is like people are going to build trust and rapport with your projects first rather than build trust and rapport with you as a company. Because ultimately they’re going to spend $200,000.
Aaron Horner
Sure.
Logan Shinholser
On their end goal first and foremost, rather than like, who do I hire to do this thing?
Aaron Horner
Okay, okay, sure.
Logan Shinholser
Step four then becomes the website. So the website is a culmination of how do you bring everything together? How are you able to talk specifically to your ideal client? How are you then able to articulate the selling propositions or the value propositions that you do in a way that people can understand it? And then how are you actually showing off your photos, your videos, your media in a way that it keeps people engaged, gets them excited, but also builds certainty and safety that you are the company for them to then be able to do that thing.
Aaron Horner
Okay, okay.
Logan Shinholser
And quick analogy is the website is like the resume for the business. So very similar to if you’re going to go out and try to apply and get a new job. Your resume needs to be tailored specifically to either the company or the industry that you’re going after. So if you’re trying to apply to a remodeling company, having a bunch of, you know, experience about how you’re a line cook probably is not going to be very relevant. In fact, it’s probably going to hurt because then the hiring manager at the remodeling company is probably thinking, if they’re a good hiring manager, not oh, well, they’re a line cook, they’ve been on their feet all day. They’re going to be thinking, why would you include this?
Aaron Horner
Yeah.
Logan Shinholser
Is this all you’ve done?
Aaron Horner
Yeah.
Logan Shinholser
So it’s the resume for the business. So it needs to be tailored to the actual person. It needs to highlight the specifics of what you have done. How are you able to help whatever the future company is that kind of comes into like your unique value propositions. And then when it comes to like work experience on your resume, that’s a lot of actually showing off like the photos and the videos on your website to prove you have done these things before. So there’s a lot of overlap between if you are trying to get a job somewhere and you’re going to beef out a really nice resume that looks good and it’s clean and it reads well. Your web, your website needs to basically embody very similar styles of information and types of information.
Aaron Horner
Okay. Okay, cool. Yeah.
Logan Shinholser
Next piece is, and this is like the part that starts to change a lot more with today’s day and age is going to be traffic. Traffic, meaning how do we actually get people back to that website?
Aaron Horner
Sure.
Logan Shinholser
So last episode we talked about SEO, AI, searched some Google Ads, things like that. But you’re, I’m basically going to break down, you have like step four, five, because step four is website. Step five is going to be like, we’ll call it intention based traffic. And step six is more of demographic based traffic, if you will, higher up.
Aaron Horner
In the sales funnel. People not necessarily looking to buy right now.
Logan Shinholser
Correct.
Aaron Horner
Yeah.
Logan Shinholser
So intention based traffic. Traffic just means like, just like traffic on the road. People going from point A to point B. In this case, point B is going to be back to your website.
Aaron Horner
Yeah.
Logan Shinholser
So we want to drive traffic back to the website. You’ve got intention based, which people are actively going online and seeking either your company specifically out or seeking out a company like yours. And just to give you a good example, if they type in Aaron’s remodeling into Google, they’re seeking Out Aaron’s remodeling. Yeah, if they type in remodeling company near me, they’re still seeking something out proactively. They’re just now doing it not knowing your brand name. But both of those are gonna be like intent based or intention as far as like what the user is trying to do.
Aaron Horner
Okay. Okay. So from what you’re saying, we have the six steps that we talked about last time. We have the ideal client, we understand their problems. Our unique selling proposition speaks directly as the solution to those problems. We take all of that and through our branding that is aligned with that, we create a website that directly appeals to that ideal client. So it’s all kind of foundationally tying back to who that ideal client is and what their problems are. So making sure that we have a strong foundation there with both conceptually our marketing that aligns with what their problems are. But then visually through the branding, the website and the media, we are also basically proving that same message.
Aaron Horner
And now you’re saying the part that’s changing from what we talked about last time is now that we have that stable foundation, how do we get people into it to convert into clients?
Logan Shinholser
Correct. Because. And these shift based off of the market. So like at the time of this recording, it’s a slower market where you know, people are still searching for this stuff but like buying decisions are taking longer.
Aaron Horner
Meaning.
Logan Shinholser
You know, I was talking to a client the other day, he’s like, I have about 600 grand in design right now of people that I was like for sure thought they were going to move through really quickly and now they’re just kind of taking their time to make that final decision. Yeah, so it, that’s part of it is like the shift in just, I don’t know, like the macro of the economy as a whole and like how people are feeling about things. But on top of that a shift in like just typical customer journey. And like, you know, Google is starting to shift with all the AI search stuff. Like this time last year it was starting to become a thing.
Logan Shinholser
Now it’s really starting to become more of a thing and I’m sure this time next year we’ll be like, oh yeah, what was that Google thing all about? So yeah, part of it is going to be external circumstances and part of it’s going to be just the nature of how as technology updates and how people get used to new ways of buying things, the more that this stuff will shift.
Aaron Horner
Yeah.
Logan Shinholser
So you have your intent based stuff which is going to be people actively seeking you Out. A good example of how it shifted was 20 years ago we had Yellow pages. Yeah, Yellow Pages was intent based. You went to the yellow Pages to find a specific type of company to do a specific service for you. On the flip side, you have your demographic base which is basically you just saying, I think my ideal clients live in this area or go to this type of website or do this specific thing. I want to get some sort of advertisement up there.
Aaron Horner
Yeah, much more targeted.
Logan Shinholser
Yeah, well, targeted in a way of like you’re. They’re not actively seeking it out, but it’s more of like, okay, my ideal client drives to, you know, to and from this city on this highway every single day. So because of that, I’m going to put a billboard up on this highway.
Aaron Horner
Yeah, yeah.
Logan Shinholser
Okay.
Aaron Horner
Yeah. Like you’re positioning like who you’re actually looking to give the. Deliver the ads to or the like. That is much more targeted. It’s people. You have much more control over that than in the yellow Pages example. Correct? Yeah. Yep.
Logan Shinholser
So that’s the six steps that we talked through last time. Big shifts, I would say before we go into like the re. Packaging of how to approach it is really going to be the first. What’s their problem? How are you able to help them solve it? What’s the media look like? Then the website does have some like. As you kind of go from like the very beginning of like the six steps, which is who the ideal client is all the way through the end, each step changes a little bit more than the previous step because who your ideal client is, you’re still. The whole point of that step is to identify who the ideal client is, what they’re buying, why they’re buying it, what’s important to them, what’s not important to them. Yeah, things like that. That really is not.
Logan Shinholser
That doesn’t change nearly as fast as the very six step, which is like social media ads and things like that. Because that’s like dependent on Facebook’s algorithm. So you understanding who you’re going after and then you being able to then articulate how you specifically help them, which is step two. Those don’t shift nearly as much because you’re not reinventing your systems eight times a day like Google is reinventing their algorithm eight times a day.
Aaron Horner
Okay. So you’re shifting from like those lower down steps. I mean it’s more theory and the strategy behind everything, but as you get higher up, it’s more the practical day to day. Here’s what you actually need to do to make that happen.
Logan Shinholser
Correct.
Aaron Horner
Yeah.
Logan Shinholser
20 Years ago, back to the, you know, yellow. You go to yellow pages, find the remodeler that you want to work with. But 20 years ago, as the homeowner, you still wanted a nice kitchen that felt like you finally made it in life. It’s good for the family. It changes the family dynamic when they’re in there where everybody’s, like, making memories, things like that. Now the styles were. Were different. Where 20 years ago, it was like, all right, we got this peninsula island. Like, let’s really hammer that thing home. And now it’s more like a waterfall island. So, like, those styles and trends differ. But the reason that people got their kitchen remodel 20 years ago versus now is not all that different. Yeah.
Aaron Horner
You still have empty nesters, you still have growing families. You still have people coming over for the hol days.
Logan Shinholser
Exactly. So that’s more. So of what we’re going through today is just like, with those shifts, how do you now, especially on, like, steps like 4, 5, and 6, so like the website, the intent traffic, and the demographic traffic. So website, you know, Google and AI search, social media, ads, branding, all that stuff, how are those shifting and how do we approach that moving forward?
Aaron Horner
Okay, cool. So that sounds good to me. I think my main question at this point is how have those things changed in the last year? And then what specifically made you, like, think about updating basically our approach at cgn?
Logan Shinholser
Yeah. So loaded question. So good. How does it change? Is. Is just people making slower buying decisions. I think the further that we come out of COVID which was like, basically like the heyday of a lot of this stuff, like, that was very much like, that was a buyer’s, a seller’s market. Excuse me. So basically, it’s like, if you were a modeling company, somebody was gonna, like, whether you liked it or not, they were gonna hire you.
Aaron Horner
Yeah.
Logan Shinholser
And you were just, like, holding on for dear life. And now it’s slowed down. So now it’s swung from, like, hey, we know you’re gonna get this thing done. So you. You know, we’re busy.
Aaron Horner
Yeah.
Logan Shinholser
Take longer. It may not be as doubted in. But now it’s shifting into, like, people are slowing down a little bit more. So as that trend happens, you know, you’re going to have to update how you approach certain things. Which then also means that your marketing tactics need to stick, need to move, need to change. Sure. It’s also us learning more about the tools and going, actually, this is some of the things that we are seeing this is how you need to now update what is happening for your own marketing. Okay. So that’s a big part of it is just as, like the, I don’t know, economics and stuff changes and like, how people, like, buy things change.
Logan Shinholser
But also, like now with AI search becoming more of a thing, we are now updating how we actually do the marketing around SEO and AI search and stuff like that. Because that has changed. You know, like this time last year, I think Reddit was the big thing. So, you know, they, you. They even have services out there now that you can hire somebody to basically go into Reddit and like, kind of not spam the system, but kind of spamming or game the system and try to go into, like, specific subreddits. So Reddit’s a forum and they have, within the, like the digital forum, like, sub forum. So there might be like a Charlotte specific forum. Yeah, Maybe Charlotte Home Improvement. And then I could go in there and go, oh, Aaron’s remodeling in Charlotte is the best remodeling company out there.
Logan Shinholser
That is a service that people will like, you can hire them to do. But as Google, because. Because Google and the AI search stuff and ChatGPT is big on this, will reference Reddit because in their mind, they’re like, well, Reddit is like an open forum. Very trustworthy, very trustworthy people. This is like more like user base. It’s not anybody gaming the system. Well, marketers are great at gaming the system. Yeah. So what ChatGPT was doing for a while was saying, we trust Reddit. A lot. People picked up on that. And because this is America and capitalism wins, you can hire somebody to go in and game the system for you. They figure that out and then they totally devalued it compared to where it was at one point.
Aaron Horner
Yeah. So it’s like I remember years ago when I was first learning about SEO, like, I couldn’t understand why Google was so secretive about, like, how their rankings work. And like, there’s general tactics, but they would never tell you. Exactly. But that’s exactly why as soon as people know, they’ll game it. And now it becomes immediately flooded with like, fake advertising, basically.
Logan Shinholser
Correct. And then it’s harder on Google because then you got to make a big shift, which costs them money and stuff like that. So basically they’re just trying to say, put out good, helpful, useful content and we will reward the best.
Aaron Horner
But they’ll do their best to do.
Logan Shinholser
They’ll do their best. But, like, there’s still. There’s always the ways that you can game it. There’s like, you know, things that you can go very much by the book, which is by the book is great. But by the book takes the longest.
Aaron Horner
Yeah.
Logan Shinholser
It’s also one that weathers most of the storms. Most people don’t want 100% by the book. Like that’s like going the speed limit at all times.
Aaron Horner
Yeah.
Logan Shinholser
Most people want to drive nine miles an hour over the speed limit where it’s like if you get pulled over, you may get your wrist slap, but you’re not going 200 miles an hour over the speed limit where you’re immediately going to jail.
Aaron Horner
Yeah.
Logan Shinholser
And some people do play that game where they try to game it too much with Google and it works very briefly and then it tanks because either Google figures it out really quickly and just does a massive update, which they’re doing a lot of major overhauls at this point, or they can specifically target your website and say, actually it looks like they’re trying to manipulate this too much. We’re just going to go ahead and basically give them like a black listing of saying like, we’re not going to show you in Google anymore until you make all these fixes and appease us.
Aaron Horner
Okay.
Logan Shinholser
Which is like way worse.
Aaron Horner
So, so for the remodelers listening to this, like what practically would need to change for them? Like, like is it more of a change that you’re saying, like we need to worry about internally? Like our SEO department, they are making changes and like for remodeler listening, like still find a marketing company and SEO or should they be doing something entirely differently at this point?
Logan Shinholser
Well, a lot of this, and this is like what we’ve been shifting more into is like the whole like showing off the work that you’re doing and basically leaning into that first and foremost.
Aaron Horner
Okay.
Logan Shinholser
So it’s like the. I was reading a study that talked about why does AI writing sound like AI? And when everybody thinks, well, why do you think AI writing sounds like AI?
Aaron Horner
To me it sounds like AI because it says a lot of generic things that don’t there that aren’t really true but not necessarily wrong. And it has a lot of similar cadences. Like you have the example of like, you know, you’re not doing this, you’re doing this and it’s not this, it’s this. Like I’ve seen a bunch of stuff with that already.
Logan Shinholser
Yes, it’s a lot of that. So a lot of people think it’s like the word. So it uses like the words. Like it has to earn its place or like, let’s delve into this thing.
Aaron Horner
Yeah.
Logan Shinholser
And that’s like a minor part of it, but it’s not the words themselves, it’s the consistency that AI puts into things. So every sentence is like 10 to 15 words every single time.
Aaron Horner
Yeah.
Logan Shinholser
But a human rights where one sentence could be five words and the next one could be 30 words.
Aaron Horner
Yeah.
Logan Shinholser
So there’s a lack of like variability in like sentence length. That is part of it. They also, like, what most humans will do is most humans will use like a couple phrases repeatedly. AI tries not to repeat those phrases. So they basically find a bunch of different ways to say the same thing. So everything feels too smooth too. Even humans also, like, do a lot of like, they want you to infer things. So like, you know, they want you to like visualize. So if I said, you know, when Aaron walked into his kitchen, he was proud. That’s what human would say. But what AI would say is when Aaron walked into his kitchen and he saw what was in front of him, he stood taller, his chin was up and his chest was sticking out because he was proud.
Aaron Horner
Yeah.
Logan Shinholser
So what AI will do is it will try to articulate the emotion too much and not leave it room for human interpretation. And it tries to like over describe things.
Aaron Horner
And are you saying that like, that’s probably true at this point? You know, July of 2026 across, like the various models or.
Logan Shinholser
Yes.
Aaron Horner
Yeah. Okay.
Logan Shinholser
Yeah. Each model, like they. I was looking at the report I was reading was like showing each one has like their own different ways that they do it, but it’s all very consistent where it’s a lot of very similar stuff.
Aaron Horner
Interesting.
Logan Shinholser
So, okay, that so and the reason I bring all that stuff up is because with all this new shift in AI, like for a lot of people, like the AI writing has basically eradicated sloppy writing, sloppy grammar. Like things that are just like, at this point pretty much like inadmissible. Like that’s like when somebody submits a resume to me and I’m like, this looks terrible. Like, at least put this into ChatGPT ahead of time and say, make this look better formatting wise. Like the like AI should basically this point, like, you should not write bad copy or not write bad things. It’s just going to feel very generic. But it shouldn’t be like, wow, how do they like totally misuse this word repeatedly.
Aaron Horner
Yeah.
Logan Shinholser
So that goes away. But with now everything being easier to use now we need to lean into the more human side and the most human way of doing things is going to be actually showing off the things that you’ve actually done. And that’s the other part of what makes AI writing feel more like AI is they talk a lot about nothing.
Aaron Horner
Yeah, that’s the generic part I was getting on. Like, it can say a lot of things, but if you look at it like, because it doesn’t have real examples a lot of times to pull from.
Logan Shinholser
Yes.
Aaron Horner
It just is saying a lot of vague sentences that don’t reference anything that truly happened.
Logan Shinholser
Correct. So to get out of that, you need to basically seed it with real information, real examples, real unique thoughts, things that are not the same as what AI knows it to be. That’s how it can then take your thoughts and then write, you know, then you set the various stuff up and still write it. Where it’s like, okay, this is fact based. It is saying the word delve. It is saying this had to earn it, but now it’s actually showing proof. And it gets humans more bought into actually going, okay, even if this was AI written because it uses an EM dash or it throws a colon into the middle of a sentence when it very easily could have just done like a list, it still now is going to feel more emotionally, like charged, which is what you want.
Aaron Horner
Yeah, I feel like less people are like extremely strict about it can’t be written by AI, but more so, like, I don’t want it to be lazy, I don’t want it to be inaccurate, or I don’t want it to waste my time, which is what often you like. That’s what you think of when you think of written by AI.
Logan Shinholser
Correct. So what is now happening? And the best example I can give you is like the reason that like step one is ideal client avatar. Like when we talk to that about a client, like, the best way that you can go about this is what most people will do is they will go, let me think about my ideal client avatar. It is somebody that lives in this area and they’re about this age and they’re this income level and it’s usually just a bunch of generic stuff. Like you do what you think you’re supposed to do. And I remember I was like talking to someone last week and I was like, yep, we’re gonna dive deep in your ideal client. She’s like, oh, I’ve done this so many times. I already have it.
Logan Shinholser
Like, I already know exactly who my ideal client avatar is.100 of the time that I’ve done this with somebody where they’ve already come in with like, I already know all my stuff. All their stuff is basically just chat GPT giving a very generic thing that if I said, okay, great, this is quote unquote, your ideal client avatar. Who else’s ideal client avatar is this? You know, from a competitor standpoint, it’s going to be everybody’s.
Aaron Horner
Yeah. So it’s like middle to upper class, mid-40s family.
Logan Shinholser
Yeah, that’s what everybody says. But we don’t. They don’t dive deep into like the exact specifics of things. So what we do is instead we go, okay, great, pick one individual person, like your favorite client that would fit into that bucket of what you’re saying. And let’s actually talk through them specifically. And that’s where we’re diving in and actually gaining the right information to go. What was this specific problem that they were trying to solve? And it’s not like, oh, they just didn’t like their kitchen. It’s like, yeah, they just moved here from overseas. They knew that they were going to come back home. Like, the husband’s already over here for work, but the wife and the kids are still living overseas. So his job is to basically fly back and forth.
Logan Shinholser
So it’s like there’s a whole backstory to a lot of this stuff that’s like very rich in detail.
Aaron Horner
Yeah. It makes it real. Okay.
Logan Shinholser
It makes it super real. Because then if you were able to say this entire story or take a sales call with this person and say, this is the exact problem, now build me out a story using AI with it. It’s going to sound a hell of a lot better because it’s going to feel more real. So the projects are really the heart of what we’ve been focusing on over here, where it’s like, great, how do we first do something that I can’t do? And that is basically proving that you have done specific projects in specific areas.
Aaron Horner
Okay, so I’m hearing from this, from a remodeler. The things to me that are more important is having a specific ideal client, not a generic one, but literally maybe a past client that I’ve worked with, identifying them specifically and then highlighting my past projects, making sure whatever marketing, I’m doing it. Whereas previously you could have a blog about pricing information, like, now the. The main thing that’s going to help you is standing out is showing here’s a specific project I did in a specific area for these specific people.
Logan Shinholser
Yes. Like when we came up with like core values for cgn, like, what I’ve done historically was like, what are good core values. I’m like, oh, punctuality. Okay, they’re always on time. Or like, I don’t know, they get better every day. Like just generic stuff. But what we did instead was we identified, okay, who are like three people. Like, each of us, like, sat down on the leadership team and said, who are three people in the company that we really like from a culture perspective? So each of us identified three people and then from there we figure out the commonalities, figured out the commonalities, figured out what. So, like, and that’s what kind of drove it. So it was more of like, pick specifics rather than going very generic. Okay. So that’s where it’s easier.
Logan Shinholser
Instead of going, I let me get a generic ica. It’s more of like, let me pick a project that we just did. And what we’re going to do is we’re really going to dissect all the different elements of that project. And it has to be a project that in paper on a perfect world, it’s for a client that we like.
Aaron Horner
Yeah.
Logan Shinholser
It’s in an area that we want to be in. And it’s for a type of project that we would like to do more of.
Aaron Horner
Okay.
Logan Shinholser
What happens sometimes is people will pick. Their ideal client is like a needle in a haystack. And it’s not that you have to pick somebody that, oh, well, they came in from the Internet and they came in from this way. It’s just that they’re like, oh, this person hit the lottery and then they had extra money and it’s like, yeah, but like, it’s too tough to find. They just hit the lottery. People like. So you want to find something that’s commonality because we want to tell the story of like, this person just hit the lottery and then that exact story is going to appeal to other people in the area that have also hit the lottery, which is few and far between.
Aaron Horner
Yeah. So you’re trying to find like the commonalities in your market, like, ideally. Yeah, yeah.
Logan Shinholser
It just has to be like, perfect world. It’s going to be for somebody that was cool to work with, somebody that lives in an area that you want to do more work in and is for a type of project that you’d like to do more of.
Aaron Horner
Yeah.
Logan Shinholser
Just saying, not doing like, oh, this person. We did a killer powder room. But I really want to focus on home editions.
Aaron Horner
Yeah.
Logan Shinholser
Because their thought processes are different. Different. So what you want to do on. On that is to identify the ideal client and what you did and all that kind of stuff is reverse engineer the whole project. So you’re starting off with first overview what exactly was done on that project? So what was the scope? What were the things that the client actually wanted that were unique and different? What was the process of getting there? Do we go through design? Did they like, design? Talk to me more about the design. Did we do just 2D, you know, like just before and after, you know, as built versus after floor planes, and that was the extent of the design. Did we also then do selections or did we send them off to a bunch of showrooms to pick out their own selections?
Logan Shinholser
Because we gave them allowances and let’s say we did do the finishes. Did we then take those finishes and put them back into a 3D rendering that actually shows that the final hyper realistic visual of what the project looks like. Did we then add in their specific furniture that they want to move into this space or not? So all of those things, when you start to dive into the actual like, project itself, starts to paint a picture of like, what did we do for this specific client that was beneficial to them? They liked it. They’re willing to refer us out to other people because that then starts to show real proof that your process on that specific project was something that other people would also probably want as well.
Aaron Horner
Okay, okay. So you’re saying specifically go through and like, just write this down somewhere. Like, essentially, like, go through, write it down.
Logan Shinholser
We do an interview style at cgn. So we interview of like, all right, like, because we used to just say, here’s a form, fill it out. But now we’re like, we realize you get so much more information by having a conversation around it of, you know, if I said, hey, talk to me about your design process, you’d be like, oh, I did design. We did, you know, floor plans. We did mood boards, we did 3D renderings. And that’s what you’re going to type out. But if I said, okay, great, floor plans, talk to me about that. Do you just give them one floor plan as a proposed or give them three floor plans based off different layout options? Did you do. Then is it. Some people do floor plans where it’s like an actual, like 3D walkthrough that’s like already created.
Logan Shinholser
So it’s not just a floor plan. It’s like actual render, you know, so, like, there’s different ways of doing it, but basically all you’re trying to do is capture exactly how you did it for this client and go, okay, great. As you went through this process with this client, did they explicitly say, I like this process or is it more of like just hoops to jump through?
Aaron Horner
Okay.
Logan Shinholser
And most people are going to say hoops to jump through opposite. Most people like the process. Most homeowners liked going through design once they got through it, as long as it was a good experience.
Aaron Horner
I see.
Logan Shinholser
Okay. So basically it then goes, okay, great. Like, did they like being able to pick out floor plans? Do they like the way that they went through finishes? Do they like how they went to your showroom? And if they go, yeah, they actually did, the next question is, do other people like that as well?
Aaron Horner
Yeah.
Logan Shinholser
And then that’s how we start to kind of build up. Like, what are the things that you’re doing in your business that we need to talk through? Because we’re basically just finding patterns. But like, the design portion of it is a really big part of it because it shows how your brain thinks and what life will look like if you are the client.
Aaron Horner
Okay.
Logan Shinholser
Okay with that. So now you kind of have your overview of what was done just from a conversation standpoint. We then have started to dive through the actual step by step of either the pre construction process, whether that you did in house design or you worked with an architect. And at which point we’ll say, great, did that architect provide renderings? Did you then have to do some sort of professional service agreement where you had to do like an actual, like, scope and deliverable list with the architect? So like, all we’re trying to do is understand how you work with that. So you’re building up this, like, whole experience of how the actual project went. Then what we want to talk through is your actual photos of the final project. And with the photos, that’s.
Logan Shinholser
That’s step three of what do we actually do here on this project. Like, I want to see the photos. We have a whole thing on, like how to take good photos versus bad photos. But basically the better the photos are, the easier it is to then market that project.
Aaron Horner
Yeah.
Logan Shinholser
Better being. Yes. It’s got to be right angles, right lighting. But it’s also like, this is a boring ass project. It’s going to be tough to make that thing sexy even with like the best.
Aaron Horner
Yeah. The best staging, the best lighting, best photographer.
Logan Shinholser
Yeah. Like you can make it look better, but it’s like back to that resume example. Like, if you’ve never done any sort of job that is relevant to the role that you’re trying to apply for, you can kind of dress up how like you being a camp counselor would Help you in enterprise sales of like, you led a bunch of people. But, like, at some point somebody’s gonna see through that and be like, you just. You’re a camp counselor. Like, I’m just gonna call a spade. You’re probably a great camp counselor.
Aaron Horner
Yeah, yeah.
Logan Shinholser
And if it was all about, if I was hiring you for a different role, maybe, but like, I need you to be a killer and like, be able to cold call and like get out there and pound the pavement. And none of what you have done speaks to that.
Aaron Horner
Okay.
Logan Shinholser
So we need to make sure it’s still relevant. But with the photography having great photos that actually you’re able to show off the things that you were proud of on that project that were also very important to the client themselves. So an example of that, I was talking to somebody else, somebody who just signed on with us is they are not in house design. They do in house drafting, but they have somebody else that does a design. We were talking through an appliance garage. An appliance garage was simply just a cabinet that click it lifts up and you had basically just like a strip of outlets that you can have all your appliances on. But when you’re done with the appliances, you close it back off so it doesn’t look like your countertop is littered with appliances.
Logan Shinholser
And we talk through, okay, great, you just have like a, a very, like stand back in the corner and just kind of have a photo of that. But like, how big of a deal was that to the client? And they were like, oh, they really wanted the appliance garage. They do a lot of cooking. And I was like, okay, great. On top of that, in my personal kitchen, if I plug in two appliances at the same time, my breaker is going to trip. I was like, did you guys think through that at all when you did this? And they’re like, oh, yeah. Like, you could plug six things into like six hairdryers into those things and they’ll all stay right there.
Logan Shinholser
And I was like, okay, that now is showing that you think through things that maybe other people are not going to think through. But by you doing that, what you are doing is selling the idea that you’re going to think through a lot of the problems that the homeowner may face. And you’re probably getting in front of it. But on top of that, we want to, we don’t want to just have like a write up that says, oh, by the way, we had this thing called an appliance garage. You still want to as best as Possible show off a nice photo of that appliance garage. And then say we create an appliance garage where you can have six hair dryers plugged in if you wanted, although we wouldn’t suggest it. And then it talks a little bit through.
Logan Shinholser
We set it up where we have an extra breaker and this and that. So if you’re now cooking for Thanksgiving, you could have two mixtures running in, I don’t know, an air fryer, you know, at all, at the same time, without worrying about is it going to trip downstairs.
Aaron Horner
Okay, so I’m hearing like you’re getting a ton of information and maybe you’re getting to this, but like, what are we doing with all of this information? Because it like I could also see as being overwhelming. Like we’re talking through the design process, the pre construction process. Are you saying, like, we need to inform future clients of all of this information, like make sure they have all of this detailed understanding?
Logan Shinholser
Yes and no.
Aaron Horner
Okay.
Logan Shinholser
There’s ways to do it. So basically, Mark Twain had that famous quote, I would have written a shorter letter if I had the time.
Aaron Horner
Yeah.
Logan Shinholser
So our role is to basically take tons and tons of information and then whittle it down to the most important things and present it in a way that people are still going to consume it. Okay, so that is the goal of, with all this information is. So basically, if you sat there and spent 45 minutes showing off these great photos and talking through your process and highlighting all these things, you now have all this great information.
Aaron Horner
Okay.
Logan Shinholser
But for most people, they’re not going to sit there and want to just off the street, listen to 45 minutes of you diving through all this stuff. Some will, most won’t.
Aaron Horner
Yeah.
Logan Shinholser
So now it becomes great, we have all this great information. What do we do with it? Yeah, the main thing that we like to do with this is we like to build all these feature project pages.
Aaron Horner
Yep.
Logan Shinholser
We have talked about that many times in these podcasts. Basically it is a mini case study for the projects that you are wanting to do more of in the areas that you want to do more of in. Yeah, that’s going to highlight the. Before the process, it’s going to show off the photos, it’s going to have explanations of what it was done, it’s going to talk through pricing timelines, what drove the cost up, what drove the cost down, things like that. But basically, in the span of five minutes, somebody’s able to go through, from top to bottom, a page on your website that highlights all these things about a specific project that gets them excited about the project, but then also shows that, hey, we thought through a lot of things on this project.
Logan Shinholser
That from a process perspective, from a strategy perspective, from a just basically like, how can we actually make sure that we get this job done the right way perspective, we thought through all these things and here’s our way of proving that we have done this on this project specifically, and we’re doing it on this feature project page.
Aaron Horner
Okay. Okay.
Logan Shinholser
Does that make sense?
Aaron Horner
Yeah. Yeah.
Logan Shinholser
Okay.
Aaron Horner
Condensing it down to a single page that tells the story of the project. Yeah.
Logan Shinholser
And making the page beautiful, making it exciting. Like, that’s the biggest thing is that you can have all this information, but if it’s not formatted correctly or if it’s too much information, it’s not the perfect balance. Nobody’s going to want to stop and read through all that stuff. And it starts to become. It’s like Steve Jobs whole thing was like function follows form, meaning the iPhone looks beautiful and it’s simple. And as a result of that, more people are more likely to use it. Then it’s all about what’s the use case for it?
Aaron Horner
Okay.
Logan Shinholser
Versus, you know, PC, which is like you get customized and do all this nerdy stuff, but vast majority of people aren’t good. Yeah. Most normal people are going to be using an iPhone at this point, not like a notebook 3 because of like how simple it is.
Aaron Horner
Yeah. Okay.
Logan Shinholser
So, okay, that’s a big part is you have your feature project page now that becomes almost like its own hub in and of itself where now that we have all this information, you can then build basically many marketing campaigns around each of those projects. So let’s take the same example we talked through, which is they have an outside interior design firm. They have a. They’re remodeling the kitchen, they like to cook. They have an appliance garage. They also have. We’ll call it like a cool. Like another special thing on this project was they did like an island that has a breakfast bar at it because the people have two young kids basically have all this information now to actually be able to build out a campaign.
Logan Shinholser
What we want to do is you go back to the idea of intent based versus demographic based marketing.
Aaron Horner
Okay.
Logan Shinholser
Intent based marketing is somebody that is specifically looking up something or someone to do that service. Our goal is to basically take the information from that project and make sure that we can either write blog content or write copy on the website to then explain what was done. And this is separate from the feature project page that will then drive people from, let’s say, Google to that feature project page.
Aaron Horner
Even though that copy isn’t on the.
Logan Shinholser
Feature project page, it’s on a different page, which would be, you could take all the information from that because some of that, let’s say like the appliance garage.
Aaron Horner
Yeah.
Logan Shinholser
Like a lot of people know what appliance garage is, but not everybody fully understands what it is. Things like that.
Aaron Horner
Yeah.
Logan Shinholser
So what you could then do is based off that project, you could talk through, have a blog, talks all about appliance garages and it’s all about what is an appliance garage, how do they function, what’s realistic, what’s it going to cost? You know, are there any like specifications for what needs to happen for it? So you can have a whole blog all about appliance garages. So now what ends up happening is people that are trying to seek out information around like, hey, I want to have this and this, and I want to have an appliance garage with it. They want to look up anything relating to appliance garages. They’re hopefully able to find your blog. But what it’s also doing is also proving to Google that you are more of an expert on specific things relating to your industry.
Logan Shinholser
So if you’re remodeling a kitchen, you would want to have a blog all around appliance garages. One’s all about types of breakfast bars, one about appliances as a whole, what about flooring options. So basically what you’re trying to do is prove to Google you know about all different facets of whatever topic or whatever service it is that you’re trying to sell. It’s called topical authority. So basically you’re showing full authority over a specific topic.
Aaron Horner
Okay, okay. So it’s not enough to just do the one page. You need the whole site to kind of reinforce that like your voice is worth listening to correctly. Okay.
Logan Shinholser
And you’re trying to prove it. Now what is starting to shift is you have your intent based pages on your website which are things that are like geared around kitchen remodeling in this area, kitchen project done in this specific area that is like a feature project page is geared around like, hey, we did this service in this area. So somebody who’s going to Google and typing in this service in this area, Google’s pretty likely to show a page like a feature project page or a specific service page relating to that thing. Okay, okay, that’s going to be one type of page. Then you have Other pages. One’s called like an informational based page. Basically you’re just providing information. But the point of that page is to just inform or educate somebody, not actually get them to then buy something.
Aaron Horner
Sure.
Logan Shinholser
So if you’re writing all about appliance garages, what works, what doesn’t work, you know, the styles and whatever it is, you’re writing that not to say, hey, this is all about an appliance garage, by the way, buy my stuff. You’re basically just saying, this is like, let me inform you of like what.
Aaron Horner
This thing is and then point them over to like an example of when you’ve done it.
Logan Shinholser
100%. Okay. So in that blog itself, let’s say you had two different feature project pages that had an appliance garage in it. You could talk through in that blog, like the different styles. And maybe you say, hey, for style A, we do one single appliance garage where it’s basically you have all your appliances in one section and then you’re going to say, hey, as an example, here’s a feature project page that or a feature project that we did that actually had this in it. And you can link over to that page. So if they want to explore more, they can do that. But maybe style B is you have a bunch of smaller appliance garages hidden throughout the kitchen.
Aaron Horner
Sure.
Logan Shinholser
Because you’re not going to like, you know, you have like your golden triangle. Like you’re not going to sit there and have like four air fryers next to each other. Maybe you have one each corner. For whatever reason, if you have that style on a different project page, you could link over to that one as well. Okay, so you’re still trying to draw people into your website, but then get them over to like what we call as the money pages. Money pages being the things where people are likely to then turn into an actual lead.
Aaron Horner
Yeah.
Logan Shinholser
But that’s part of what the blogs have always been meant to do. But now, okay, that AI search is becoming a bigger and bigger thing. There’s less people that are actually going to the blog. So what it used to be is they go to Google, they say, what’s an appliance garage? They see, you know, your post right there, they click on it, they go through the whole page, and there’s that. What is happening now is ChatGPT or AI overviews or Claude or whatever it is starting to summarize those things already for people.
Aaron Horner
Yeah.
Logan Shinholser
So if they have their question answered.
Aaron Horner
Yeah. There’s no reason to go.
Logan Shinholser
There’s no reason to go there. So then what needs to end up happening is if you still want people go to your page, which is still very beneficial from like a authority standpoint, then what ends up happening is you need to be able to provide information that is harder to just be simply summarized by ChatGPT or AI overviews.
Aaron Horner
Okay, what’s an example of that?
Logan Shinholser
Styles of appliance garages with visuals associated with it. Great.
Aaron Horner
Okay.
Logan Shinholser
Because in AI Overview, they’re not going to show a bunch of photos of, like, different styles where it’s this and like.
Aaron Horner
Yeah.
Logan Shinholser
So you need to basically have it where it’s like, less likely that it can just simply summarize your life away and actually show a better version of what that could be.
Aaron Horner
Okay, so like a bad example would be how much does a kitchen remodel cost? Or how much does a specific thing cost in my area. Because that could be a little blurb. But if I’m looking for style examples, what I’m actually wanting to find is like, photo description. Photo description. Photo description, yes.
Logan Shinholser
Now here’s where the nuance comes in, and this is where it’s going to make it confusing because you’re going to go, well, you just told me not to do that.
Aaron Horner
Oh, boy.
Logan Shinholser
Different types of articles mirror different like. Like think about Buzzfeed. Buzzfeed’s whole thing is like 14 types of restaurants that you never want to go to again. It’s a listicle.
Aaron Horner
Yeah, right.
Logan Shinholser
That’s hard to summarize. But for a pricing thing, like, a lot of people just want, like a ballpark summary of, like, what this thing costs.
Aaron Horner
Yeah.
Logan Shinholser
You still want to write about that stuff on your website because it still helps to inform people of what things cost. And you’re the one that’s actually informing them of doing it. Now, on that page, you would love to be able to have, like, yes, you have a summary. But the idea would be that if you have this summary that gets listed in AI overviews, it would then have like, hey, here’s the actual, like, link to this page. And people click on that link to go to the cost page. You would then be able to have, like, examples of like, this kitchen costs 150. Here’s a quick blurb. Why? And then here’s a link to the actual page.
Aaron Horner
I see. So then you’re drawing them in.
Logan Shinholser
You’re.
Aaron Horner
You’re saying like, yes, on average, this is what it cost. But I can give you specific examples if you’ll come see this. Yes, essentially, yes. Yeah.
Logan Shinholser
And that’s much harder to just have ChatGPT write a generic thing.
Aaron Horner
Yeah.
Logan Shinholser
So with that, so now we’re going through like what blogs are still meant to be used for. Now on top of this, let’s take the example of maybe they never get to your website, maybe they never actually go there, but they’re just on their own chat GPT and they’re saying, I need to find a remodeler that can do a kitchen that is in a transitional style. I want an appliance garage. They need to be somebody that’s reputable in the area and I don’t want to spend more than 200 grand.
Aaron Horner
Okay.
Logan Shinholser
What I will do is go out and try to find and be a professional matchmaker and find people that will actually do those things. Yeah. Now what ends up happening is I will go out and if we have an article that helps to summarize what your pricing is, that can help. Check that box of can we even do a kitchen that’s transitional with an appliance garage for less than 200 grand or not?
Aaron Horner
Okay.
Logan Shinholser
If we simply say here’s a bunch of feature project pages and it’s up to AI to try to decipher it and figure it out. It costs AI money to crawl through more and more pages.
Aaron Horner
Yeah.
Logan Shinholser
So you would love to have like a overview of what costs is on your website but be able to use real life examples and link out to them. But when AI is doing this search, they’re not searching for, you know, remodeling website with a bunch of examples of different projects that have this on it and this, they just want to like, hey, cost of, you know, like maybe they deem like the criteria of like remodeler kitchen cost is under 200 grand. They go, okay, I found four people that talk through on their website that they can do a kitchen for under 200 grand. Now once I look through those four people, what I noticed was that two of them talked about appliance garages. So we’re going to kick out the other two that do not.
Logan Shinholser
So now we’re down to two people that have conversation on the website around appliance garages. The big difference was contractor Remodeler A, which is Aaron’s Remodeling has a bunch of different examples of different projects on their site. As we’ve dove deeper into it, they’ve been in business for four years, they have a ton of reviews and they talk about the different styles they build in. Transitional is one of them contractor B Just has a generic blog post that says we can do a kitchen for under 200 grand.
Aaron Horner
Okay. So it’s kind of a dance you’re having to do here with giving the right amount of information in the right way to make sure that you’re getting people back to your site still.
Logan Shinholser
Yes.
Aaron Horner
Yeah.
Logan Shinholser
So you still want those feature project pages because ultimately those are still going to be the things that they’re going to go there and like, ooh and awe about. And like in this industry, it’s still very much is a slower sales cycle. Like, you’re not going to go to somebody’s website and go, dan, that looks good. I’m calling them right now. You’re still going to like come back and forth, like over the next couple of months, like as you’re slowly deciding and there’s going to be some instance in your life that you go to somebody else’s kitchen and they go, wow, this is amazing. Let’s just pull the trigger. You’ve been looking at this person’s website for four months now. Let’s pull the trigger.
Logan Shinholser
But you need to basically take the information that we had in that 45 minute interview in the project, build out a project page, but then build out a bunch of other helpful pieces of content that will then align with what other things people want to know about.
Aaron Horner
Okay. Okay.
Logan Shinholser
So, and we’re even getting to the point where there’s like a type of blog post that’s called like the job that needs to be done. And what that is writing about topics that people may not explicitly be searching for in Google. So and I a concept of that would be you are going to Google, you’re going to type in what does a kitchen remodel cost?
Aaron Horner
Okay.
Logan Shinholser
Okay. Would that be a realistic search that you would type in?
Aaron Horner
Yeah.
Logan Shinholser
What an unrealistic search would type would be is, I just got quoted $150,000 to remodel my kitchen. Am I getting scammed? Yeah, nobody’s really going to search for that.
Aaron Horner
Yeah, like maybe that becomes a conversation you have with an AI.
Logan Shinholser
Like, and that’s the thing though is AI, when you write these other types of blogs, it’s basically saying, we know people are not specifically going to be seeking this thing out, but we’re going to actually help to educate people on these topics and basically go, hey, look, you don’t know if you’re actually like, you know, you’re not going to search for this thing. But ChatGPT saw that you wrote this. We actually have a relevant article that talks about what should happen in $150,000 kitchen. Now we’re able to start to connect the dots.
Aaron Horner
Interesting.
Logan Shinholser
So it’s almost like taking like the nuancey things of like, hey, I know what you’re saying is what does the kitchen model cost? But what you’re really thinking is, am I getting scammed on $150,000 kitchen? And guess what? We have an article for both of those things.
Aaron Horner
Yeah.
Logan Shinholser
So that’s where some of this like nuance of this stuff starts to come in, where you’re trying to cover a wide range of topics. Because it used to be you want to write around what’s a kitchen model cost in Charlotte, but now you take all the information from a project and you could basically take one project and if you do a 45 minute interview on them, tons of information. So the one that we talked through earlier would be like all about appliance garages, talking about types of like, first off, do you even need a design for your project? Next one would be what types of designs are beneficial in the remodeling space?
Logan Shinholser
Or hey, I have an interior designer, Can I hire a remodeler on top of that, like there’s a bunch of different subtopics that you can cover within the actual conversation in that 45 minute piece that starts to like really show, you know, all elements of what went into that kitchen project.
Aaron Horner
Okay, okay.
Logan Shinholser
So you’re really starting that kitchen project, which again is the experience part that is hard to fake. It’s hard to just have ChatGPT whip one of those things out. You’re actually talking through real life examples and that makes you unique because nobody else has those photos with that story online.
Aaron Horner
Okay. So now what I’m hearing is yes, we’re. That project is very important. And like those conversations that you’re having with the remodelers about like the more intricate details of the design process and the pre construction where I previously said like that was a lot. How do you actually use all of that? What you’re essentially what you’re saying is that it all gets used in all of these like surrounding articles designed to, for both Google and AI to bring people back to those central pages of the project.
Logan Shinholser
Yes.
Aaron Horner
Okay, okay.
Logan Shinholser
So you’re basically taking one project and turning it into a ton of different pieces of content. Yeah, we even gone through the fact that podcasting, YouTube videos, social media posts, all those also piggyback off of this as well. But like that’s your. Let’s just call it. Your intent base is going to be. Now we’re going to write blog posts all around the information that we get from this one project. With examples.
Aaron Horner
Yeah.
Logan Shinholser
The demographic base, which is, hey, they’re not ready yet. And they want, you know, right now we did this one really cool project. Younger Family, Waterfall Island Appliance Garage. We did it in, I don’t know, we’ll call it Long Beach, California.
Aaron Horner
Okay.
Logan Shinholser
And now what we want to do is say, hey, everybody in Long beach, if you got a family, whether you want to remodel right now or not, we just want to show off a project to you. That’s all we want to do right now. The way to do that is you’re basically setting up your social media ads that go back to that feature project page.
Aaron Horner
Yeah.
Logan Shinholser
So now your feature project page is not just waiting for somebody to google or go to AI search and find it, whether they go directly to it or they go through a blog to that page. Now what you’re doing is you’re practically just getting it in front of people that are living around that house that you actually did the project on. Because the likelihood that like in my exact neighborhood, I got two young kids. I would say out of the 15 houses on my road, half those people have kids under the age of 10.
Aaron Horner
Yeah.
Logan Shinholser
So you kind of like live amongst each other.
Aaron Horner
Yeah.
Logan Shinholser
So now what you’re trying to do is basically just introduce yourself to the area around it, saying, hey, we’ve already done a really cool project that we’re proud of. For somebody that’s probably similar to you in your area, instead of just saying, hey, we just did this. Buy our stuff, all we want to do is introduce ourselves to you. But instead of saying, hey, we’re great, just saying, hey, let me show you off a project that we have done in your area.
Aaron Horner
And what are the various ways of doing that? Like we. We’ve talked about blogging for the intent based. But like, what practical like how. How are you seeing is the best way for them to get those projects in front of the neighbors?
Logan Shinholser
Social media ads are gonna be the easiest way to do it.
Aaron Horner
Okay.
Logan Shinholser
So basically what ends up happening is. So the difference of like social media versus radio or TV is first, you have a lot more control with who’s actually seeing it on social media. Facebook is a much better collector of information rather than NBC.
Aaron Horner
Yeah. Almost too good. Some say.
Logan Shinholser
Yeah, so they got trouble for that at one point. But basically it’s like you are able to say, I want to get this project within a one mile race of already this house to these types of people. Medic can do that for you and they can send people directly over to it and show off those projects. Like, we just did this with a client of ours. It’s funny because, like, the actual clients we built on a feature project page for them, we actually use, like their first names on it. And then the client reached out to our client, said, hey, I don’t want you using my first name. So it shows that, like, the actual homeowner saw that project.
Aaron Horner
Their own ad.
Logan Shinholser
They saw their own ad, and they said, hey, you can leave it up. Looks good, but just don’t use my actual, like, first. Like our first names. But like, otherwise.
Aaron Horner
Yeah, the targeting is so close by that point.
Logan Shinholser
Correct.
Aaron Horner
So, yeah, it’s literally going to their neighbors and stuff. And yeah.
Logan Shinholser
And now all their neighbors are like. My neighbor, when were doing our project, said, hey, after, and we talked about this four or five months. Hey, who did your project? And I’m like, there’s been a yard sign up front for four or five months. Yeah, like, just look at the yard sign. But he still texted me and said, who has done your project for you?
Aaron Horner
Yeah.
Logan Shinholser
Versus, like, now if you had an ad, he would be able to like, see the ad and go, oh, this is the same company that has the yard sign out front of Logan’s house.
Aaron Horner
Yeah.
Logan Shinholser
And they’re showing off another project. Let me now explore it that way.
Aaron Horner
Is he the neighbor? Like, if he’s coming into his house, does he drive by your house every day? Wow. Yep.
Logan Shinholser
Every single day.
Aaron Horner
I was hoping maybe he was the, like the house right before yours. So then you had an excuse of,.
Logan Shinholser
Like, every single day he walks his dog at least twice a day. So, like, it’s not like he’s driving by really fast. It’s like he just didn’t stand out enough.
Aaron Horner
He’s just literally blind to the marketing. He just.
Logan Shinholser
Yeah, he just. He knew I had a project done because of everything going on. And he knew what the project was because we talked, but he didn’t know what the name was. And I was like, oh, that’s a big mistake.
Aaron Horner
Yeah.
Logan Shinholser
Okay. So now when you have social ads out in front of it, you’re basically putting up all these digital yard signs all over the town or the areas that you’ve been in. You’re not blasting it to 10 mile radius because you want to get this in a tight window and basically saying, hey, we just did this project on Ideal way right? Off Freedom park in Dilworth. And if you live off ideal way, you’re definitely going to look at that.
Aaron Horner
Yeah.
Logan Shinholser
And if you live off Freedom park, you’re more likely to look at that. And if you live in Dilworthy, you’re, you know, you’re.
Aaron Horner
Yeah. You still likely.
Logan Shinholser
You still likely. So it’s basically goes from like, hyper targeted to basically, like, hey, if your name is Aaron and your wife’s name is Tori, we got a project to show you.
Aaron Horner
Yeah.
Logan Shinholser
And you’re just like, well, that’s too specific.
Aaron Horner
Yeah, I don’t care for that. Yeah.
Logan Shinholser
So, but that’s the idea is you just want to introduce yourself in front of people and say, this is a project that we’ve done that we’re proud of.
Aaron Horner
Okay.
Logan Shinholser
And as you get more projects in different areas, you can just set this up again. And it’s just like a constant, like, adding more and more to show, hey, we have done more and more projects in your area.
Aaron Horner
Yeah.
Logan Shinholser
I was at dinner and one of Audrey’s, my wife’s friend, showed up and she was explaining how she was getting her whole house remodeled. I was like, oh, who’d you use? And she said, person. I had no idea who it was. I know a lot of people here in Charlotte. No idea who this person was. How’d you find them? And she’s like, well, they, like, their yard signs are all over our neighborhood. Like, they’ve done so many other projects for other people like us. And I was like, oh, did you. Did they also, like, design it? And she’s like, oh, no, went through an architect for that. And I said, oh, did the architect, like, recommend them? And she was like, yeah, but, like, we just saw the yard signs.
Logan Shinholser
So I even tried to give her, like, an out of saying, like, it was actually a referral from the architect. Yeah, but it was. The architect basically validated the yard signs.
Aaron Horner
Okay. So, I mean. Yeah. So essentially what I’m hearing you say is people just. When you finish a project in an area like your ideal area, like, you need to make absolutely sure that the neighbors and the surrounding people know that you complete the project there. It’s almost like staking your claim or like putting up like a beacon, like, hey, this one’s ours. We just finished one here. And then they see another one. Oh, they also did this one here. They also did this one here. And as they’re seeing that, it’s building up, like, trust that you are actively doing work for people just like them. And it seems like People are having good experiences because people keep buying 100. Okay.
Logan Shinholser
So that’s where the other side of it comes in. If they’re not intent based now, they’re actually like, we just want to get in front of them. And again, it’s much easier to show off the projects rather than doing it from a lens of like, hey, I’m Aaron. I own Aaron’s Remodeling. We’re great.
Aaron Horner
Yeah.
Logan Shinholser
So that’s the big difference here, is that the intent based side of things and the demographic based side of things is flipping way more into. In the world of AI. I mean, AI or not, people still want to see the projects because like, once I remember, like we had a client early on, it was like one of the first remodeling clients who’s like, yeah, the first thing people want to see is they just want to see my work.
Aaron Horner
Yeah.
Logan Shinholser
I was like, okay, like, I guess that makes sense. So we kind of built stuff around that. And then lo and behold, a couple years later, I was like, oh, this is like a really big deal.
Aaron Horner
Yeah.
Logan Shinholser
Because this is not like I was used to the pawn world where it’s like they still want to be excited by pawn work, but like, pawn work is so foreign that like, it’s kind of hard to like decipher bad pawn work from great pawn work unless they’re side by side.
Aaron Horner
Yeah. People are less hip to like current design trends with pawns. And what makes a good pond versus a bad one.
Logan Shinholser
Correct.
Aaron Horner
There’s not an architectural digest for pawns,.
Logan Shinholser
But people so used to great, you know, remodeling versus okay versus bad that now the bar is a lot higher. So it makes a little bit different. So the projects themselves, you build out these mini campaigns. So when you now launch a new feature project page, you’re then able to write a new set of blogs around it. You’re able to launch new social media ads around it. If you are running Google Ads because, you know, that’s something that we’ve started to have to do because as things have slowed down, we need to now drive more traffic to websites on top of what’s already happening. We also want to make sure that like, we’re articulating the elements of what we do, what clients do on these projects onto the landing pages for Google Ads, things like that.
Logan Shinholser
If you want to get creative, you can write emails out to past clients that are basically saying, not, hey, Fourth of July is coming up. Here’s like 10 barbecue chicken recipes. It’s like, hey, we see this really cool project. Check out the like, check this out. Like show a couple of photos in like the actual email, but then link back to the feature project page. You can do mailers that are like actually being sent out to past customers, but also mailers sent out to like sphere of influence. People saying like, hey, we do a lot of aging in place. You’re a ot. We just did a really cool project for a client that needed a safer space but didn’t want it to feel like the VA stepped into their home and did their bathroom. Check out a couple photos of it.
Logan Shinholser
And by the way, if you want to actually see the full thing with a breakdown, you guess what this QR code links back to.
Aaron Horner
Yeah, the page.
Logan Shinholser
So basically you’re creating these mini campaigns around the projects that you’re doing because that’s your proof. And then that gets in front of the next person who’s similar to the person that you did the project for. They’re able to see it. That then turns into a lead. You then get the project. Project then becomes complete that project. You then go out and you get photos of it, you get videos of it, you get review from it. Then you go back into that 45 minute interview. You, you sit back down, you walk through what you did, why you did it, how you did it, and you just run the page back up and you just repeat.
Aaron Horner
Yeah, so, okay, so the main difference I’m seeing from the, what we talked about in that previous episode in our previous strategy and this one is like previously I think I, I’ve understood it as the website is the central hub and you’re almost just kind of reaching out to the, your general service area, trying to get people back to that. But this sounds like essentially you’re trying to do that on a much smaller, more specialized scale. Like instead of the pro, the website itself being the hub, which maybe it still in a sense is it’s really more. So you’re doing that same strategy but for each individual project that you want to highlight.
Logan Shinholser
Yes. The website still needs to have like, kind of like that blog idea where like you could show five different kitchens that have all appliance garages and they all have different price points. But what makes it even easier for people to understand is just also having a blog that basically summarizes what stuff costs and then links back out to those. So you still need to have like a kitchen remodeling service page which is basically saying we do this service in this area.
Aaron Horner
Yeah.
Logan Shinholser
And then what that’s going to do is basically talk about like, these are like the way that we do it is we talk about a lot of problem solution. So like with a kitchen, there’s typically three main problems that people have that makes them want to redo their kitchen. It’s either aesthetically unpleasing, it is not functional, or there’s bad storage options.
Aaron Horner
Yeah.
Logan Shinholser
So what we want to do, instead of saying, hey, if it’s ugly, we make it look better. If it’s not functional, we make it more functional. If it had like, we actually want to show proof of what we did to say if it’s ugly. Here’s a specific project where this was a, you know, we build in the transitional and the modern style. We can do mid century modern. But here’s a couple examples of projects that we have done. By the way, if you want to explore more of those projects, here’s a link to the project pages.
Aaron Horner
Yeah, okay.
Logan Shinholser
So it all kind of, you’re basically summarizing throughout the rest of the pages all of those things to make sure that if somebody just wants the high level information, they can find it. And that’s still super relevant for Google and AI search. But at the end of the day, it is hard to find fake experience. So you need to have those project pages. Like the analogy that we’ve been talking about here at CGN is like we used to look at like the project pages as like a thing and then we moved into like, well, it’s kind of like on a, in a football game, like it’s the quarterback. But in reality, like the feature project pages were like the football where like the whole game can’t happen without the football.
Logan Shinholser
And in this case the whole flywheel of yeah, everything can’t happen without those project pages and the information with it because that drives everything else.
Aaron Horner
Okay, so I’m seeing the bigger picture here now. It’s like this is almost like the antidote to like AI slop. Essentially. Like everybody’s marketing the business, everybody is writing blogs, everybody’s doing all this generic content. The only way at this point to have a meaningful separation between you and somebody else is being able to stake your claim on. No, this is an actual thing that we did in your actual neighborhood.
Logan Shinholser
Correct?
Aaron Horner
Yeah.
Logan Shinholser
And it makes it so much easier. And that’s like, we’ve even been like very guilty of like the AI slop stuff because it’s a lot of like, hey, I get it, but this is what’s ranking on Google. But as we’re starting to see the writing on the wall. It’s like, okay, we can’t, like, we’re going to have to slow it down and do less things, but do them better and make them more specific. So that’s where like, we have that whole like C gen client brain that we have talked to, you know, talked about on like the AI podcast. But all the information that gets fed into it is going to be the information from the feature project pages. Because it’s really, yes, it’s about that specific project, but it’s really more about what are those things that you did on that project?
Logan Shinholser
Because that kind of starts to play out like, you know, what are the specific things that you do in your business? And it just happens to be that you do the same style of design on every single project. That then is what drives the information for the design page. Yeah, like we have on our websites, we have that like what it looks like if we’re in your homepage and it talks to like, these are the major concerns that most homeowners have. It’s going to be going over budget, going over timeline, poor communication, poor quality of work, safety and cleanup issues. And basically instead of just saying, we know those things exist, trust us, we got it. We’re actually saying, if you’re afraid of budgets, this is how we operate. First, we have a very detailed scope of work.
Logan Shinholser
Second, we do this thing called fixed price contracts. Third, yeah, you know, like, if there is a change order, we will expl. So it’s like basically saying like, this are the major things that we know that you’re going to be fearful of, because, yes, you want this very expensive top of Maslow’s hierarchy of needs thing, but you’re basically sacrificing the very bottom level of Maslow’s hierarchy of needs, which is like safety, security, shelter. Like, you’re basically saying, come into my home to build me this beautiful thing, but I want you to take sledgehammers to the walls and basically mess up my way of living. So we need to still sell the sexy thing at the top, which is the end result, but we need to build uncertainty at the bottom.
Logan Shinholser
To say you’re basically sacrificing your own peace of mind for a certain period of time to get to the beautiful end result. That’s not even, like, it’s not going to make or break your life. Like, you’re not going to be on your deathbed going, God, I, I’m so glad I went with, you know, as a leash tile pattern in my bathroom. Yeah, yeah, you’re not going to do that. But if that thing goes poorly, you are going to think of, like, damn, I wish I would not have, you know, those three years that it took to redo my kitchen. I wish I wouldn’t have taken three years. I wish we just didn’t do it at all.
Logan Shinholser
So basically trying to prove both ends of getting them excited to do it, but then backing it up with, like, and this is how we will build certainty that we are the right person and do it for your project. But you need both. But what most people do is they do a very generic bottom level of maslow of just saying, hey, we’re really good at this stuff, recommunicate, we communicate really well, but they don’t actually have any ways to prove it. And they’re also not getting, excuse me, getting people bought in at the very top of the pyramid to say, by the way, this thing is worth it at the end because this is how beautiful your kitchen could actually look.
Aaron Horner
Yeah.
Logan Shinholser
So the. The biggest shifts here are going to be focusing, especially with, like, the way that people are buying today is one, getting way more into actually showing off the real work with the backstories to it and then building off campaigns around it. And then two, making sure that because people are taking longer with decisions, like, we are starting to dive more into sales process, how can we then infuse these feature project pages into the actual sale?
Aaron Horner
Okay.
Logan Shinholser
Like, we have a whole podcast that talks through selling using your website. And it’s this exact thing of saying, instead of giving a ballpark of 200 grand over the phone, say, hey, can I show you a page on my website? Hey, you see that kitchen right there? That sounds a lot like your kitchen.
Aaron Horner
Yeah.
Logan Shinholser
That kitchen is 200 grand.
Aaron Horner
Yeah.
Logan Shinholser
Now it’s associating a whole story and photos and visuals with 200 grand, and it makes it much easier to truly understand. Oh, this is why it costs what it costs.
Aaron Horner
Yeah.
Logan Shinholser
So you’re just shifting a little bit of, like, what needs to get across, but you’re really just leaning into experience and being able to properly articulate the backstory to all this stuff that then drives the rest of the marketing.
Aaron Horner
Okay. Okay. So, I mean, just in general, it’s a much more specific approach around your featured projects. Like, it’s like you’re saying, like, those have just become more and more important.
Logan Shinholser
Over the years because it’s hard to fake.
Aaron Horner
Yeah. Cool. Cool. Yeah.
Logan Shinholser
Is there anything we’re missing?
Aaron Horner
I don’t think so. I think that seems like the, like, that makes sense in the world of AI that would be the solution. Yeah, yeah.
Logan Shinholser
Just getting more real with it. So yeah. Cool. All right, well hopefully that’s helpful. It’s, you know, if you want to dive deeper into any of these different elements. Episode 466 is like a good like it goes through each of those six steps in like a bit of a different way than we talked about today. And then each of like the subsequent episodes like 467, 468 dives into like ICA and USP even more in depth.
Aaron Horner
Yeah. So each of those concepts and gives it a whole episode.
Logan Shinholser
Correct. Yeah, it was a good top level overview of like this is how the flywheel is spun but it’s all geared around. If you do awesome projects, you’re in a very good spot for all the marketing stuff. If you do very generic projects, it’s going to be tougher. Cool, cool. See you guys next time.
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