The Client Experience Behind this $3M Remodeler

Logan Shinholser
Welcome back to the Contractor Growth Network podcast. I’m Logan Shinholser, and today I’m joined by Andrew Nuhfer from AKN Interiors. Andrew, if I had to guess what the K stands for, I’m gonna go with that’s your middle name. And your middle name would be Killian.

Andrew Nuhfer
No, it is Kent.

Logan Shinholser
Kent.

Andrew Nuhfer
Another somewhat Irish name.

Logan Shinholser
I would say I was, because it’s like the red beard. So I figured, like, hey, like, this is. This has got to be it. So, yeah, that was my second guess. But Andrew’s on today, and you’ve been a client of ours now for a few years.

Andrew Nuhfer
Yeah, I’d say a little about a little over three, I think. I first talked to Ali in the fall of 22, I want to say.

Logan Shinholser
Okay, so a little over three. And what Andrew does really well is you’ve also grown really fast, like when you first joined. And we’ll talk a little bit more about your backstory to give some context here. But like a big part of how you’ve grown has been the amount of energy and effort that you put into pre construction, the client experience, your use of job tread, all of that stuff. So that’s what the main focus of today is going to be is basically, if you are a client of AK and Interiors, what does life look like when you’re working with Andrew and the team? So that’s we’re going to be diving into. But Andrew, if you would bestow us with a little bit of your backstory to. Can you talk a little bit about what.

Logan Shinholser
How did you come to actually like start AKN Interiors? Like, why did you even start a remodeling company in the first place?

Andrew Nuhfer
So, you know, like most people our age, because you and I around the same age, were told, hey, go to college. And you know, I went to college, you know, did that whole thing. And then when I got out of college, I moved from a small town outside of Erie, Pennsylvania, which is right in the lake down here, to Pittsburgh and I don’t know, worked with my degree for a little while. I really didn’t like it. And I had done construction in some way, shape or form in high school and college, so I kind of just took it as a fallback. And then I’d say, you know, a few years after moving down here, every, you know, job I would work at, I would always be like the youngest one at job sites for a long time.

Andrew Nuhfer
And then as I progressed through my career and I would get promoted and things like that, like, I started seeing some of the numbers and, you know, I just kind of put two and two together and kind of realized that, you know, there was pretty decent opportunity out there for someone my age to get into the construction industry. Not only that, but my mom is a successful business owner. She actually just sold her business and exited this year. So I was kind of raised in that environment. Kind of like you know, just to maybe think somewhat in that direction at some point in life, like be my own boss. And then eventually the stars just aligned. I got in an argument about, with my former boss about paying for gas and I was like, you know what? Now’s the time, let’s do it.

Logan Shinholser
And when you. Well, let me. Let’s step back for a second. College. What’d you study in college that you came out and actually did something with? Because you’re one of few people that I know that actually did their use their degree for something.

Andrew Nuhfer
I would, I would. You. I Would use the term, used it loosely. I went to school for business finance and then got out of school and went to be a bank teller for a little while.

Logan Shinholser
All right, so money is still involved or finance is still involved. I like, I did engineering and like, I do nothing with it whatsoever now. But I know most people are in that same boat. So you come out, you work for another remodeling company, you quit. What was it like for you, like from an emotional standpoint, like starting your company? Akn, is it excitement? Is it terror? I guess put yourself back in your shoes on that day that you said, screw it, I’m going into business for myself. How you feeling?

Andrew Nuhfer
I mean, I had been doing side work for years and had already started building up a book of customers. So I don’t know, I. I feel like it was kind of a slow burn, like knowing that day was going to come. But I will say I still look back on the day I put my notice in at work and that was like the most anxious I had ever been. But then kind of once I, you know, got through maybe the first year in business, I was like, this is what I was always supposed to be doing. So it’s, I mean, nerve wracking at first, of course. But, you know, I had planned for it, I’d saved. I have foregone many big life decisions still to this day in the name of building up the business. And it’s paid off that’s how.

Logan Shinholser
I was where like I remember when I first I was talking to my dad about it and he. Because I was talking about quitting because I was doing stuff on the side nights and weekends and I had gotten enough clients that I, I didn’t have enough hours in the day. And I remember I called out of work sick as inside sales at indeed. And I felt so guilty that I called out sick to be able to work on my own stuff that I’d already quota was. I was pacing, I was good. But I was like, man, I feel bad that I’m like double dipping here. And I talked to my dad and he was like, look, like, if you want to do it. What do you have in savings? And I had six months of Runway.

Logan Shinholser
And it was like, why don’t you figure it out? But it wasn’t the. Which I see every so often. Somebody’s like, I quit my job. I’m doing my own thing. I’m tired of it. How do I get customers? I’m like, oh, no. Like, you got to come in with at least Some connections on the side or something. So you’re not basically just like now you’ve got. And I see this a lot with people that have like four kids. And I’m, you know, I started this when I was 25, something like that. So like I had a girlfriend and that was like my biggest, I don’t know, responsibility at the time. I didn’t have kids, I didn’t have any of this stuff. And it was just pouring my life into this to be able to like get it off the ground to a certain point.

Logan Shinholser
So to be able to like start it with something lined up versus like a total wing it job was like huge, I would say.

Andrew Nuhfer
Yeah, I mean, I was in a similar boat, you know, girlfriend, but didn’t own much of anything, you know, didn’t own a home, anything like that. I had some money and a retirement account that I actually cashed in and gave to you guys to build my first website. But other than that I was like, you know what? Before I have all these responsibilities, let’s take a swing at it. Worst case it blows up and I go back and work for somebody.

Logan Shinholser
So let’s now transition over to like running the business. So the big thing that we’re talking about is just overall the approach to like client experience. So we’re going to go through some like the tactics and specifics. But like when you think of what most construction and remodeling companies are doing is they like doing the actual thing. They like the swinging of the hammer. They like, you know, figuring out the problem solving in the space. And I hear a lot where people will say things like, I’ll be on the phone with it with a remodeling company and they’ll say something like, look, I’m really good with customers. Customers absolutely love us. And then I’ll read the reviews and the reviews will be like a 4.2. And I’m like, hey, just it’s. What’s up with that?

Logan Shinholser
And they’re like, well, you know, we have a lot of customers that won’t leave reviews and the only ones that leave them are the ones that aren’t super happy. And, and I’m just like, I get that. But like, at the end of the day, if you’re really good with customers and like you’re client focused, ultimately your reviews should reflect that. And if your reviews are not reflecting that, then you gotta go on like a tear to like get a bunch of good reviews to basically show that you are customer focused. But long Story short, what typically happens is the people that I talk to that are in that scenario are usually very good with customers as long as the customers make it very easy for the remodeler.

Logan Shinholser
But as soon as it becomes hard, that’s when it’s like, well, they just weren’t a very good customer and that’s when they get the bad review. So when you look at your reviews, I mean, you have stellar reviews, I guess. What is your approach to the client experience within the remodel? With the whole experience, you know, from the start that the time that somebody calls you all the way to completion, how are you approaching the client experience to make sure that they’re getting out of it what they want?

Andrew Nuhfer
I’d say it’s a journey. So we start off, you know, our projects have now grown into, the vast majority of them are, you know, six figure projects. So they take some planning and legwork up front and you know, we start any project with bringing in a, an interior designer. We have a team that we’re partnered with that we’ve gone as far as putting them on our website. That’s how much we believe in them. And we do that so that expectations are set very clearly from the beginning. We do that for the customer’s sake and we do that for our sake too. And as we travel down that road, you know, once they decide to, you know, sign a pre construction agreement with us, you know, we stay alongside of the designers the whole time. And that can look a number of different ways.

Andrew Nuhfer
It’s a, it’s a number of due diligence things we do, honing and pricing, you know, starting real high and then bringing it down in, down to a final number. And then the, you know, the design team, they’ll hone in on all the things that will go into the project. That way before we start the job, they’ve seen, you know, renderings of what it’s going to look like. Our proposals, essentially how I build my proposals now, they’re a playbook that I hand over to my team. The benefit to the customer is that it’s actually the document that they’re signing as well. So I want it to be descriptive enough where I can say, okay, Matt Justin management team, here’s the job, schedule it, build it, and they shouldn’t have to ask me any questions. And we’re growing to that point.

Andrew Nuhfer
Not saying that I don’t want to be involved or I’m not involved after we sign. But you know, we’ve grown to A point where I have to be staying ahead of this machine at all times. So I’m not as involved in the production side as I was before. And I think just long answer to your question, what that does is it shows the customers from the very beginning, like, this is what you’re getting. This is what you’re is going to be involved in getting to that point. And we’re your partner to get you there from the very beginning when you were just thinking about it, to when you’re actually sitting in the space when it’s all said and done.

Logan Shinholser
So if we circle back to the beginning you talked about, like, the first thing you do is you set expectations. And I’ve heard expectations set various ways. Some people are very good at it because there’s a whole nuance to expectation setting. I’ve also heard a lot of people that basically they think they’re setting expectations, but what they’re really doing is they come off pretty rough where it’s like the homeowner will say, hey, Andrew, I’m looking to remodel my kitchen. And your immediate response would be like, Great, we started 100 grand and it’s just like that technically is expectation setting. However, the way that it’s approached with the client typically then makes it feel like it’s not as, I don’t know, an intimate of a thing. It feels more transactional.

Logan Shinholser
What kind of expectations are you setting up front with the homeowner to make sure that as you guys are, because you have a pretty intricate process that as you’re going down this process, you don’t get to the end of it. And the kitchen that you’re going to remodel is going to be 150, and they’re thinking 15.

Andrew Nuhfer
I would say we start with all our leads, come in through the website, and they start off in our CRM. We have a go high level built out and I filter through based on the information I’m giving, and I filter out the customers that I think would even make sense or don’t make sense. I mean, there are. There are times where stuff just stands out and it’s like, you know, hey, we want a sliding glass door put in or something small. And I’m like, we’re probably not a good fit. So that we’ll start there and then I’ll kind of see what they’re looking to do over a call. And nowadays, luckily, I’m able kind of to suss out, like, if it’s a project we’d like to take on enough where we’ll go out and see them in person.

Andrew Nuhfer
And after that initial meeting, we’ll send them out. Not only like, here’s what it’s going to take to design it, but I also give them basically a range of like, this is what the project’s going to cost based on other projects we’ve done. And lately I’ve been going as far as sending them, hey, here’s another project that’s very similar to yours. Here’s the set of drawings from that project. Here’s finished photos. Here’s what this project costs. Just so they can have their head wrapped around like, okay, you know, this project was X amount. Mine might be a little bit different, but, you know, there’s. It’s going to be in this sort of range. That way people at least have some idea of the conversation we’re having. Not only that, but, you know, we post a lot of stuff on social media for pricing.

Andrew Nuhfer
I, we have pricing on our website. We’re pretty open about talking about it. Our industry, for some reason thinks it’s some state secret to share what things cost. And I think that makes it really difficult from a customer’s perspective because they really might get their heart invested in doing something and they just have no clue what things even might cost.

Logan Shinholser
So with you sharing other photos, other plans, like, how is that shifted how the pricing conversation is perceived versus you just basically saying, hey, based off what you’re saying, I think you’re around X to X amount.

Andrew Nuhfer
I mean, I haven’t been on the other side of the coin, so I can’t speak for customers, but what I would imagine is that there’s proof in it. I mean, you can, we can show, okay, here are three kitchens that we did this year. They were all between 140 and $160,000. Here’s finished photos of all three of these projects. So it’s just proof to the customer that we’re not just like pulling numbers out of thin air. It’s like, hey, you know, three other families have invested around this much for what you’re looking to do. And yeah, there might be a little bit of variance in the cost based on, like, the style you have and maybe some of the things that we put in there.

Andrew Nuhfer
But it’s definitely not going to be this low and it’s only going to be this high if you decide, hey, we want like exotic, crazy, everything. Sure.

Logan Shinholser
And then so they say, okay, up front, that sounds like we’re thinking 150. So you’re 140 to 160 range makes a lot of sense. One thing that you do that’s very cool is that you have an interior designer that doesn’t. They’re not in house. However, I’ve never heard a remodeling. For the most part, there’s a couple, but for the most part, remodeling companies are not like, oh, I’ve got an amazing interior designer that I work with, and we work really well together. It’s a lot of friction back and forth. Yet I can tell you from firsthand experience, you know, we’re doing a second remodel of my house right now. We both times we’ve had an interior remodeler that has helped us out with it, and it’s been super helpful from a homeowner perspective to really buy into the project itself.

Logan Shinholser
So how do you incorporate Jackie, your interior designer, into the process with the homeowner?

Andrew Nuhfer
I mean, I get her involved from the very beginning. So with. When I get on a first call with customers, once I kind of hear more about what they’re looking to do, you know, we’ll get to a point where they’re like, you know, okay, well, how. Where do we move from here? And I say, well, you know, me and Jackie, the lead designer of the team we work with, we come out and look at your project, we talk a little bit further, etc. Etc. And they meet her up front because her and I are a team in planning these projects. I mean, you know, I bring her for all of our jobs, and in turn, you know, she brings me projects when customers go directly to her. And it. And it just works out. I mean, she’s a.

Andrew Nuhfer
She’s a user on our job tread. You know, she’s a user on my CRM, she’s on our website. You know, like, it’s. It works out very well. We’re intertwined together and we have it pretty well nailed down.

Logan Shinholser
How did you work out the relationship initially? Because, like, I know, like, there can be egos involved as far as, like, she wants to do things a certain way, you want to do things a certain way. So, like, how do you. How did you make sure that you guys were like, in lock step to make sure that, like, what she was designing for clients of yours was actually realistic and within budget for what you and the client initially talked about?

Andrew Nuhfer
I think there was some figuring along the way. I mean, there was early on, there was a few times where it wasn’t necessarily that her and her team were doing anything wrong. It’s just we. I wasn’t saying, staying as involved as I should be with the budget. And, you know, things got picked that just took things so far into left field that it just put a bad taste in everyone’s mouth. So we’ve learned along the way, like, kind of how to assess this out. Now we get. Now we send out a proposal that we ask customers to agree to after we get floor plans. That way we can say, okay, this is the project, what it’s going to cost. We have allowances in here for selections. We do that so that the interior designers have a budget for everything to show you different.

Andrew Nuhfer
Three different options or whatever, and then we can refine the price from there. But then we’re having this broader or more honed in conversation, budget wise, still pretty early on. That way it’s not like, hey, we talked a range in the beginning, and then, three months later, hey, it’s 50 grand more. Take it or leave it.

Logan Shinholser
So are you, like, when you’re doing, like, your initial proposal, you’re sending out, like, a basic floor plan, and that will just have allowances with each item. Then that way, if they approve it, then it goes back to Jackie and the team. They go, okay, great. We’ve got X amount of money for a range hood. This is what we think would work really well based off their style.

Andrew Nuhfer
Pretty much, yeah. And I have discussions with the designers to kind of see, like, what their style is and kind of, like what level of finish they are thinking that these people will go. But yeah, I mean, we have that so that the customers can also. We also ask for a small retainer at that point so that we can say, okay, your project. We’re gonna just put you in pen for first week of March. Now, you have between now and three weeks before the job starts to nail down the selections. Here’s the budgets for everything. Of course, if you want to spend more, fine. But what we’re finding is that it’s actually an easier sale if we air on the higher side of allowances. And then usually they end up getting some kind of credit back to their project.

Andrew Nuhfer
It’s just easier to get money back than ask for more.

Logan Shinholser
And when you do it with Jackie, has it always just been like, well, I guess, like, even now, is it. Here’s ballpark blanket. Like, you have X amount in allowances. And then that way, maybe she. When she’s talking to the homeowner, she hears, like, back to the range hood example. They keep bringing up custom range hood. So she knows, look, I’m gonna actually take an extra three grand away from the range and build a really cool range hood, but then give them more of like a general range. Like, is it to that level where she, like, has so much leeway with the allowances that she kind of feels it out from the client so that way she sticks within the overall budget or are you pretty dialed in? That’s like, this is going to go towards this finish.

Logan Shinholser
This is going to go towards this finish. And then it’s up to her to figure out how to make each individual finish stay in line with what you gave her.

Andrew Nuhfer
So we break it. I break my proposals out with the selections to every single fixture item, things like that. So it’s like you can look again. It’s a playbook. So you can look at the whole selections part of the proposal and see we got 500 for a light fixture, we got 10,000 for a countertop, we got 25, 000 for countertop, blah, blah. So it’s not like just one big bucket. Like you have $50,000 to spend on selections. Don’t go past that. Like, I get very granular with it to make everyone’s lives easier. Like, if I set that up from the beginning, then I can pass it off to everybody that needs to be involved and they can understand what I was talking about. Sure.

Logan Shinholser
And then you get through all that, talk to me about like, the actual, like, communication process that you and Jackie and the client have as this is happening. Because she’s doesn’t technically doesn’t work for you, so she’s not like in your office every single day, I’m assuming. So how are you staying in communication with the client and with Jackie? And as this design process is happening.

Andrew Nuhfer
Jackie and I have a couple different things we do. We have like a Google spreadsheet that we have that has all of our projects that we have together, what stage they’re at from my company, what stage they’re at with her company, what needs to happen next. And then her and I are in constant communication. I mean, we have so many projects going together, so. And we see each other so often that we are constantly talking about projects in different phases. They send me floor plans before they send them to the customer so we can discuss some things just so we can stay on top of what things might cost. We’ve been very fortunate in the sense that. I’m not saying that our customers don’t have budgets, but they’re usually a lot more loose.

Andrew Nuhfer
And we’re finding that if we could be informative and just let them know, hey, this is what this is going to cost. Without trying to twist their arm and ask them, hey, how much money do you have? And more, just say, hey, what are you dreaming about? How can we show you what that’s going to look like? It just says leads to less friction along the process.

Logan Shinholser
And how many like projects do you have going at any given time with Jackie? Whether it’s like a project that’s still in design or it’s already in production, but I’m sure she still has some sort of hand in making sure that you it’s aligning with what she designed.

Andrew Nuhfer
As it stands right now at 15 to 20.

Logan Shinholser
Okay, so and of that 15 to 20, how many like are in design versus actually like in production?

Andrew Nuhfer
Five to seven going on currently and the rest at different stages of design. Some of them are contract signs, retainer signs. We are just waiting to start them. Others are, we’re in the middle of designing things. Others just sign contracts. And now we’re working on getting a floor plan, you know, things like that.

Logan Shinholser
So there’s a lot of move, like moving parts where it’s a lot of like, you have some things that are like brand new that you talk about. Then it’s like, hey, let’s move on to this other project they just signed. Let’s move on this other project. And it’s, hey, we’re going through punch lists at this point. At the very end, let’s make sure that everything’s like squared away.

Andrew Nuhfer
Right.

Logan Shinholser
Okay. And then you talked about how she is involved in job tread for you. So I guess let’s talk about job tread for a bit. How are you, what are you doing in job trade that you feel like makes it both easy for the client but also easy for your team to make sure that both parties are like on the same page for what’s going on?

Andrew Nuhfer
Well, so one thing that is just standard procedure for our projects is that we really make use of the daily log feature. So what that is in job tread, if people aren’t familiar with it, essentially what we do is we do a report every single day that we’re at a project. And this report is like, you know, a couple sentences to a paragraph of the work that we did that day, who was all there. And then we post pictures of the different things that got performed. And that’s not only going to be stuff that we do in house, because I have in house guys producing stuff. I also. But we also use a lot of subcontractors, so we make use of that every day.

Andrew Nuhfer
And I think customers have told us that they really value us just kind of showing them along the way, like what’s going on. Some of our customers aren’t living in their house while we’re working there. So that’s also pretty helpful. Or they might go out of town or they might be at work all day, things like that. And there could be times where, you know, in construction things might look like not much got done that day because they were really finite details or behind the walls or things like that. So it’s nice to kind of have an explanation. Also to show customers too that we care enough about what we’re doing that we’re going to photograph it every day and show you like, hey, this is what we’re doing.

Andrew Nuhfer
Like we’re not trying to like, you know, pull a switcheroo or you know, hide what we have going on because we did something we shouldn’t be doing, you know, so that part of JobTread, we have published schedules. So I have a guy at my company, his name is Matt and he’s essentially our operations manager. One of his biggest jobs is to keep our schedule. So we run our whole schedule. Subcontractors in house, guys, all projects through job dread on the schedule. So that’s super helpful for customers because then they can kind of see what’s going on every day. They can see what’s going to happen next week. You know, the schedules might, they might be dynamic to a point, but we’re pretty, we keep them pretty tight.

Andrew Nuhfer
I mean we can project out up to six weeks in advance like what’s going to be going on where. And, and we are able to stick to that.

Logan Shinholser
And when it comes to like then like I don’t know, like communication policies or standards, like are is like are all your project managers, are they like trained on like this is then how you use job trade to then communicate what’s going on in the project to the homeowner? I guess, like how are you using job trade as a tool when it comes to, I guess like the day to day communication outside of just like daily logs.

Andrew Nuhfer
Yeah. So we lay that out from once they sign the proposal with us, we’ll start messaging them through JobTread. And then that centralizes all the communication that I might have that my team might have with the customers in JobTread itself so that you know, it’s everybody, it’s not lost in emails. Like that’s thing that’s happened in the past is that like I’ll talk with the customer about something and then they’ll see, you know, I’ll forget to tell somebody and then, you know, it’s two months later and then something got missed.

Andrew Nuhfer
And now that we central every centralize everything in job tread and I kind of get the customers in that routine from the beginning and it really helps us all just keep all the information all in one place because our projects are, you know, very detail and have a lot of moving parts.

Logan Shinholser
Do you ever get resistance? Like, I know like for us, like we use Slack as our like daily communication. So like if you send me a text and it’s something that like the team needs to see, I’ll say, hey, do me a favor, post this in your Slack channel. I’ll respond there. Do you ever get resistance from homeowners or clients that say like, hey, that job trit sounds great but you know, it’s better email?

Andrew Nuhfer
No, I wouldn’t call it resistance necessarily. We’ve had some customers that it took a little while for them to adopt it. But you know, I would kind of do the same thing. Like I’d copy their email, put it in jobtrad and just reply to them. It’s jobtrade makes it pretty simple because they can actually reply from their email inbox. So they don’t necessarily have to jump in the portal if they don’t want to or reply to messages. But I think the customers that we work with, Pittsburgh, there’s a lot of people in tech here in Pittsburgh. So I think it’s more like they’re excited by it more than think it’s like a drag or something that’s annoying. Especially when they see that like we’re doing this for their sake. We’re not doing it to like try to annoy them or make things more difficult.

Andrew Nuhfer
So hasn’t really been a fight.

Logan Shinholser
Okay. And then when it comes to like your team and like communicating, you know, you have some, you have a lot of people that like that are in the trades, they got into the trades because they don’t want to have to communicate. They don’t want a white collar job or like they’re, they have a headset on, they’re talking to people, they’d rather just like put their head down and go. However, they can’t really do that, especially if you’re like a project manager because you have to have that communication level. So I guess for you, when it comes to hiring the team, what are you looking for? When it comes to communication skills from whoever it is that you’re bringing onto the team.

Andrew Nuhfer
I would say up to date, as I’ve looked for people, especially with my management team, it was more that they were. They had more people skills than construction skills first. And that’s been super helpful because two, my two top guys, not saying they’re not very knowledgeable with what they’re doing, but they really are great with communicating with customers, with the subs, with our employees, things like that. And I think us keeping that theme and kind of working from the top down and just kind of putting everyone in a good rhythm and good habits about how we communicate for our projects has just created good habits so that as we hire more people, this is just kind of the established process and how we do things. So, you know, they either get on board or, you know, they decide it’s not a great fit.

Logan Shinholser
And when you look at them, are you like balancing like, hey, you have X amount of construction experience, but you’re also like, you know, but you’re okay communication or are you bringing people in that are more like they are the communication side and like construction is like limited or like non existent at all. And you’re like, look, I can teach you this stuff, but the hard stuff to teach you is being passionate about keeping everybody on the same page, from the client all the way down to the subcontractors.

Andrew Nuhfer
I mean, we don’t hire so often that I have to really pick between that. I mean, I could be choosy enough as we grow here with who I’m looking for, but I’d say it’s very important to me to have a happy medium of knowledge in the industry, but also good people skills. You know, especially with our management team, they don’t necessarily have to know the intricacies of every single trade, but they do know how to, they do need to know how to communicate with people very well so that they can just keep the projects moving forward and making sure that, you know, the quality standards are upheld.

Logan Shinholser
When it comes to like the communication within the team, are you tracking that? Like, are you in jobtrad saying, all right, we did every single daily log, every, you know, today, and then you sent like a group chat to everybody saying, great, good job on doing the daily logs. Or I guess like, how are you keeping accountability around making sure that clients are being communicated with?

Andrew Nuhfer
I think in the beginning when were just really starting to implement some of the things at JobTread, I would keep better, more track of that. But now it’s just become such a habit with all of us that it’s just, you know, it’s kind of like breathing. Like this is just how we do this. Like, there’s no like thinking about it or anything like that. Like, the guys know to clock in, they know to clock into whatever they’re doing that day. They know they have to do daily logs. They know if we’re talking to customers and it’s important information, they have to put it in there. The project managers know that they, when they’re emailing back and forth with customers, they do it in job tread. Like it’s just how we do things now.

Logan Shinholser
And is this like a mapped out process that like whenever a new, you know, because at some point you get to like go out and find a new sub or are you like training them on this is how we do it. So that way this is what we expect from you. Or I guess how do you approach it with like a subcontractor?

Andrew Nuhfer
We have that discussion with them. I mean, we have a subcontractor agreement that says, you know, we do all important or important, you know, information pricing, things like that all through job thread. But we have discussions with them about that. The subs, probably we have a little bit more of a fight with getting them on board than the homeowners we work with. But at the same token, like, you know, we have built up a pretty decent reputation and you know, we don’t beat people, we don’t beat subcontractors up on their price. We pay them the day that they invoice us, things like that, which is unheard of in our industry. So they’re usually, they’re all eventually willing to play ball with us just so we can get to the end goal, which is, you know, finishing a great project together.

Logan Shinholser
And during the, that, you know, you do daily logs, like during the actual project, Are you doing like weekly walkthroughs? Are you like at the end of each phase of the project like you’re walking through And I guess what is like the, you know, you have like your daily logs? Like, you know, we have a remodel right now. I get daily logs through my email. But we still have like a personal touch from our pm. So how do you guys approach that?

Andrew Nuhfer
I’d say we don’t. It’s kind of project dependent and customer dependent. That’s something that we bring up with them from the beginning and just kind of see what they would like from us. So if they would like us to say, hey, you know, every Thursday at noon here, we’re gonna Meet here on the projects, walk through what’s going on. We’re more than happy to accommodate that other people, they’re like, hey, you know, we follow along the daily logs, we’re here every day, we talk with you guys every day. Like we don’t necessarily need to formally do something like that. So we’re open to doing whatever the customers would like us to do in that case, within reason.

Logan Shinholser
Okay. And then project’s done, your punch list, you walk away. Is there any sort of like post communication to make sure that like you know, you just went in there, did an addition and you walk away the next day it’s all falling down.

Andrew Nuhfer
Oh yeah, for sure. So we on the final invoice that people get, I give them the warranty information. We put everything under a two year warranty that we do. And then also we have a standardized follow up process. So every project we follow up at 3 months, 6 months, 12 months, 23 months. That way we just see, you know, how’s everything going, how’s everything looking and that allows us to go back and you know, kind of paint needs touched up or something like that. Like they know that they have a specific time that we’re going to follow up with them about that and come back if there is an issue.

Logan Shinholser
And are you adding that into like high level. So that way it’s like on the calendar to say hey, call back. You know Aaron and Tori about their project.

Andrew Nuhfer
We have it in a spreadsheet but there is, I’m sure there’s some way to automate it. I think we, a lot of these things like we’ve grown so fast that we’re implementing things as we go here, trying our absolute best.

Logan Shinholser
Sure. And then I know one of the things that we built out for you on your website was like a job tread page and you kind of just like I think popped up one day and it was there. So we like, we use like the guinea pig to build that thing out. Do you use that with clients on the phone or ahead of time at all or the clients ever comment on? Wow, okay. I see exactly how you guys use this project management software that it is.

Andrew Nuhfer
Something that I use as a selling point for sure. That’s something that I have sent to customers beforehand. I’ve sent it to them after we’ve done a walk, initial walkthrough. It’s something that I go over with them on our first call. It’s been very helpful for us to have that on our website just so they can see kind of what it will look like to work with us.

Logan Shinholser
And in your opinion, is that something that, like, it’s. You do it because you like to do it and you appreciate job tread and they’re like, this is fine. Or are they, like, nerding out over this stuff because they’re like, oh, this is like, wow, I didn’t realize you had a software. Like, this is pretty intricate.

Andrew Nuhfer
I think most people that we’ve worked for, from maybe 55 below, like, nerd out to it to a point because it’s just different. Like, it’s not what they’re used to. Like, it’s not. Their mom and dad’s contractor does not do this. The majority of the people that are in our industry do not do this. It’s. Which is bizarre to me because it’s honestly, like, it makes. It makes our lives so much easier. So I don’t know. I mean, I. I give people a lot of credit that did everything with pen and paper. Like, I don’t know how, because I need help staying organized and using the softwares we use is what keeps that possible.

Logan Shinholser
Yeah, I would say from. From, like, as I’m now going through, like, a home edition right now, and we have job tread, and we’re using it as, like, the homeowner. The daily logs, like, my wife, I don’t think has ever logged in or looked at one really, but I look at them, but it’s more so. What I found I appreciate is more so that, like, it shows me that, like, the project manager knows what’s going on within the project. So it’s not necessarily that. Like, I look at the daily log and I’m like, oh, wow, like, the framers were here today. That’s amazing. I’m so pumped about that. It’s more so, like, okay, I know that they. The PM knows what’s going on with my project at any given point. So it’s. Now, if there is an issue, I could pop in there.

Logan Shinholser
I know we’ve had, like, some things pop up with some change orders to, like, cause the delay. But I know from our side, it’s great because, like, you know, on the last renovation we did, they didn’t use a project management software. So, like, my wife and I didn’t know if there was a delay. How much of a delay was there a delay at all? While in this one, it’s, you know, hey, now we’re looking at this as, like, the target time. So it does help us to, like, at least understand what’s going on versus like feeling left in the dark because it does have the capabilities of being able to go in there and check out like the live scheduling, like the change order stuff as a homeowner is fine. It just makes it easy.

Logan Shinholser
It’s kind of like, yeah, it’s not like this feature that I’m like, extravagant. Yeah, yeah. Like, oh, I’m doing it because you can. Instead of Docusign, I can do it right in job tread and pay for it. Like, that’s fine. But it’s ultimately like the communication side of like, I now know that you know what’s going on. I know what the schedule looks like. You could tell me, hey, tomorrow they’re going to be inside the house because we need to do X, Y and Z. So like, we have that availability that like, that makes it much easier to be able to go through this project as like a homeowner versus, like some of the other features. They’re great. They’re probably way more for you than they are for me. But those are the specific things that, like, I love.

Andrew Nuhfer
Yep.

Logan Shinholser
Last thing on, like the whole, like, client experience side of things. When you now, you know, you’ve been in this now for three years and some change. You’ve grown really fast. I mean, to go from nothing to now, you’re running, you know, 15 to 20 projects at a time, but your revenue this year is what, like 3 million?

Andrew Nuhfer
Yeah. Around there. I mean, might be a little bit past, depending on what sells the rest of this year, but it’ll be up past three. Yeah.

Logan Shinholser
Which is like super amazing for doing that in three years. What’s something that you wish you knew about the whole client experience side of things three years ago that you now know now. But if you could go back, you say it to Andrew of three years ago.

Andrew Nuhfer
I think just setting more expectations from the start on what it’s going to look like to do this project from. In a number of different ways, what it’s going to cost, what the. How long it’s going to take, what, how their lives are going to be affected, things like that. I kind of tiptoed around that for too long. First couple years. And I’ve just learned more now. Like, I am the head of sales in my company, but I’m not like a salesman. I just inform like, you know, this is what this is going to take and we’re going to be the best person to get you from point A to point B. But, you know, I’m not trying to sell you on anything really. Like, this is just based on us doing enough of these, like, this is what it’ll take.

Logan Shinholser
What do you think changed? Like you said at the beginning, it wasn’t good about expectations. Was that like you didn’t know what expectations to set? Was it you were afraid that if you overdid it, they’re going to not move forward? What was the cause of that?

Andrew Nuhfer
Probably a little bit of both. You know, as you’re starting your business, you know, you don’t have a backlog, you don’t have the reputation. So you kind of just thinking that, you know, this is my one shot, so I can’t blow it, and I don’t want to blow it by telling them information that they’re going to know one way or another anyways. So, you know, you can go down a road with them for months and then it ends up sour at the end because they feel like they weren’t totally informed. Or you could just put your cards on the table from the beginning and everybody can stay happy.

Logan Shinholser
Yeah. How do you do? How do you handle it now? Like, if you miss something, like, hey, you know, like, we thought we had this, and that’s not the case. So that’s a. Now a missed expectation. Are you just calling the client up or are you going out there to see them? I guess, like, what is your approach to maybe delivering bad news because you missed something at the beginning?

Andrew Nuhfer
I think it depends on what stage of the project we are. But, like, you know, we have a project that we’re about to sign right now that’s pretty big. It’ll be our biggest to date. And when I originally talked with them, like, were talking in a range of what I thought it might take to do this project. But this is multiple six figures. And as the plans have developed and things have developed like, it’s gone a little bit past what we originally talked about. So this. As soon as I knew this information, I said, hey, let’s pause here. Let’s talk and see. You know, based on the information I have now, here’s kind of where we’re sitting. You know, I don’t want to keep traveling down this road with you if this is something you’re not comfortable with. If you are, great.

Andrew Nuhfer
Let’s keep rolling through. But I just want to keep that, you know, in front of them as much as I can so that they’re not getting blindsided anywhere.

Logan Shinholser
How do they take that?

Andrew Nuhfer
Seemingly fine. I think people. People are realistic in that most of the time, they’re realistic in the sense knowing that, you know, hey, if we’re adding some work to the project. We’re adding some work to this house. You know, and what we originally talked about, like that will add some cost. I mean, I have worked with a few clients that don’t understand the concept of if you add things, it adds cost. But, you know, majority of people are reasonable and they just want to be treated with respect and with honesty. And if you can do that, then it’s just a matter of, hey, does this make sense financially? If it does, let’s do it. If not, then no harm, no foul.

Logan Shinholser
How much of that stuff do you think is like, when I say that stuff, I mean, the people understand that if they make changes, it’s going to add money to it. Because you hear the other side a lot, which is they want to add all this stuff without paying for it. Do you think this is, you are attracting people that have that mindset that automatically know if I add stuff, it’s going to add cost? Or do you think it’s the fact that you’re setting certain expectations up front that it’s kind of like tipping off to them? Look, if you add like, this is the price that we have dialed in for this thing. However, if you add a bunch of stuff, it’s going to add money to it.

Andrew Nuhfer
I think especially when it comes to our proposals and contracts, I’m so clear with what this is covering that they understand that if it is not in what I have written in the 12 page proposal that you just signed with me, then stands to reason that it’s not included in the price.

Logan Shinholser
Okay.

Andrew Nuhfer
And I think that comes. Yeah. From me just being descriptive enough so.

Logan Shinholser
You make the proposal a big deal. So they know it’s a big deal compared to like, you know, I’m sure some people like boil it down to like every single item, which gets to be kind of overwhelming. But I’ve also seen it where you could do basically an entire kitchen one piece of paper. And it’s not super descriptive. So it sounds like you make it a big deal. So they then perceive it as, okay, this is now the final say in what I’m going to get in my home.

Andrew Nuhfer
Yep. Yeah.

Logan Shinholser
And are you building that custom? I mean, 12 pages is like a lot. Are you building that custom every single time or is it like templated out where you have to fill in the details? Like, how does that work?

Andrew Nuhfer
So we have like four main things we do. Kitchens, bathrooms, basements, additions. So I have a template for each one. Enough. It’s built out enough where I have to delete things out of it. If, like, that project, you know, if that project has tile instead of hardwood, like, I have all the different flooring types listed out so that it makes it as fast as it I, it. I can. I mean, it still takes a fair bit of time with some of these bigger projects. I’m not going to sit here and say I do it in half an hour, but it doesn’t take me weeks, you know, either. Sure.

Logan Shinholser
Okay. Love it. Is there anything about, like, the whole job tread or client experience process that you feel is like, hey, this is really important, and we haven’t even touched on that yet.

Andrew Nuhfer
I just, for me personally, like, the more, for at least with how I think, like, the more information that I can have up front about a subject, the easier it makes me making a decision. And I try to run our business that way where we can let people know up front, like, here’s all the information we can give you for the project. That’s important. I mean, I don’t overwhelm them with random things. But, you know, I, I do that because that way they can see, okay, here’s all the facts. Let’s make a decision based on these facts. And we keep that true through the whole time we’re dealing with them that way as we progress through their project and as it’s finished and everything like that, like, all of the information’s on the table. So, you know, I think that’s.

Andrew Nuhfer
I think that’s something that’s, in our industry that guys struggle with, is that they don’t treat the client relationship as kind of like a working partnership. They treat it more as a transaction. And while it is a transaction, like, at least the project we’re doing, like, they’re for large amounts of money for long periods of time. And a relationship, one way or another, is going to have to be built during that. So why not make that easier by staying in communication? You know, you wouldn’t communicate with a friend like some people communicate with their customers. Like, why not? I’m not saying you have to best friends with everybody, but why not make it, you know, at least easier?

Logan Shinholser
Sure.

Andrew Nuhfer
Cool.

Logan Shinholser
All right. Well, Andrew, I appreciate this.

Andrew Nuhfer
The.

Logan Shinholser
The cool thing about, like, you know, you having everybody involved in the job trade side. I know there’s a lot of people that are, like, resistant to job tread. But you’ll be at jobtrad Connect this year, correct?

Andrew Nuhfer
Yeah, me and my team will be there.

Logan Shinholser
Okay. Why bring the whole team? Like, it’d be cheaper for you. Just to go.

Andrew Nuhfer
Not bringing the whole team. I bring in two of my managers. Well, because they’re in jobtrad just as much as I am, if not more so. Each of them own different parts of it, and I think that there’s learning opportunities there. And also, to be honest, like, I want my team to enjoy the fruits of our success. Like, so if that means they get to come down to Dallas with me and stay in a nice hotel and go to a nice dinner and, you know, enjoy stuff like that, like, they earned that, too. It wasn’t just me that earned that. Like, I couldn’t have done that without them. So, you know, it’s. It’s twofold for information and just so that they can kind of pat themselves on the back for doing a good job.

Logan Shinholser
Love it. Cool. All right, everyone, if you are going to be at Jobtrake Connect by the time this comes out, this will be like, early January, actually. So Andrew will be down there, I’ll be down there. But otherwise, if not. Andrew, thanks for coming on and just going through the process, the approach, how to get the team involved and basically just, like, honestly, how to use job trade to your advantage and, you know, make it all happen. So thank you very much.

Andrew Nuhfer
All right, thanks, Sullivan.

Logan Shinholser
All right, thank you, everyone. We’ll see you next time.