Photos and Videos that Actually Help Sell Remodeling Projects

Aaron
There are probably a lot of you listening right now that you do something that your competitors don’t. Whether it’s small details with your quality of work, your communication, how you structure your projects. There’s a lot of little things that you do that your clients end up appreciating make you worth more than your competition. The problem is your prospects don’t know that. All they know is what they see online. They see your photos, your videos, testimonials, what’s on your website, all of the media that you put out there. That’s what actually sells your future prospects. So today we’re talking about what actually makes photos good, what makes a good testimonial, and how can you hire the right photographers, videographers, to get this stuff done for you. This episode is highly visual because we’re talking about media.

Aaron
So if you want to see examples of everything that we’re talking about, head over to our YouTube channel where we have a video version of this podcast as well, with a bunch of visual examples for everything that we’re saying. Without further ado, let’s get into it.

Logan Shinholser
Hey, everyone. Welcome back to the Contractor Growth Network podcast. I’m Logan Shinholser and I’m joined by Aaron Horner. And we’re going back to. Through our continuation of really what it takes to market a remodeling company. Now, what we’re talking about today is media, which is going to be super. I mean, it’s relevant to everyone for the most part. I mean, with the exception of, like, you know, I don’t think, like, an electrician needs to really, like, show off, like a breaker box in, like, a super sexy way. But I mean, you. There are other elements that go into, like, the media for those companies, but we’re focused specifically on, you know, the remodeling, home building side of things. And what we’re really going to do is be breaking down, like, the three different, like, elements that go into media.

Logan Shinholser
And that’s going to be photos, videos, and then, like, design and like, graphics that are associated with, like, how do you actually get yourself there? So, yeah, Aaron, talk to us a little bit more about, like, why media? Because this is, like, your forte. This is your specialty. So I’m excited that, you know, you’re going to kind of lead this one. But what’s the whole point of media?

Aaron
Yeah. So in context of what we’re talking about here, guys, so the whole system is creating a marketing plan for your business. And last week’s episode, we talked about who your ideal client is. And the message you need to get out to them. And then this week’s episode is much more about, okay, now that we know what we need to say to them, how do we say it and how do we show it? And it’s more importantly, how do we show it? Because if your words could do it, then you wouldn’t need to be shooting photos or videos. But you’re in such a visual medium that the idea is you need to be taking these photos and videos. Improving how good your work is letting your ideal client see what it’s like to be in their space before they ever purchase it.

Aaron
I mean, the whole idea is making them be able to see, like, okay, what would this be like if I went through with their services, trying to make it as sweet of a potential for them as possible to overcome the fear and anxiety of getting this done and spending the money and.

Logan Shinholser
Yeah, and a couple of things on the media side that just kind of like set the tone for, I guess, the. The episode. But it’s really like a lot of people when they approach media for their projects, it’s really more of like a just taking a photo just to have it and like, to feel like they’re checking that box.

Aaron
Yeah.

Logan Shinholser
I was talking to a. To somebody yesterday, Higher end remodeling company up in the Northern Virginia area. They had previously done a bunch of professionally shot photos, and then recently this kind of fell out of getting those, and they’ve been doing more iPhone photos. And yesterday he was like, hey, just in the past, you know, couple weeks since we’ve last spoken, like, went out, shot two projects with a professional photographer. And he was just like, man, it. I forgot how night and day the difference is.

Aaron
Yeah.

Logan Shinholser
And I was like, it’s kind of hard to, like, go back to, like, iPhone photos now. Ha. And he was like, yeah.

Aaron
And that’s.

Logan Shinholser
That’s the same thing. Like, we’ve had that with tons of clients where we have gotten a lot more aggressive when it comes to, like, the website side of things. Of, like, when we’re building out a website, we’re like, look, you. You need to go out and get photos of your work. Like, we’re. We’ll do stock as like a last resort. But, like, you have enough time between now and when the actual website build starts. Go get these photos. Like, we will help you even find a photographer, which we’ll talk about how to do that today. Yeah, but I mean, he built out like, we built out the website using his photos, built out a nice feature project. Page that, like, walked through one of the projects that he had captured and he landed a job from it.

Logan Shinholser
That the person said, I saw this project. I want that exact thing in my house. And if it was done in a very just iPhone photo way, it would not. Yeah, I don’t think it would have happened.

Aaron
No, I mean, the. The whole thing is creating. Like you said, a lot of people know to check the box of photos and videos, but because you don’t know what the purpose is or how it’s going to be utilized, you have less buy in on getting it done the right way. So then it’s like, well, maybe an iPhone photo is good enough. But I hope by the end of this episode we’ll be able to show people like, hey, here is the goal of them. Here’s what it can do for you, and here’s what separates a good photo from a bad one. Here’s what separates a good testimonial from a bad one. And same thing for the design renderings as well.

Logan Shinholser
So let’s go through photos first. Okay, talk to us about in your mind, what is the role of photography in the remodeling, home building, outdoor living space world?

Aaron
Yeah, the nice thing about photography is the most immediate way to express the value of your space. So, like a video, you know, there’s kind of a lead in, and people have to be a space where they’re able to consume it, whether that’s listening to it or, you know, they want to spend some time on it. Photos they can consume at their own pace and immediately see, like, what you’re capable of doing. Like, obviously they say, like, a picture is worth a thousand words because it just immediately can give people context of, okay, this guy’s the real deal. And so having those photos, I mean, you can put them anywhere on your site, like, or you can put them on social media, whatever.

Aaron
The benefit of photos is that immediate gratification of people that come in and see, like, okay, this person knows what they’re doing.

Logan Shinholser
So when it comes to photos, like, to me, a lot of. I mean, this. I’m listening to this podcast right now, and they’re talking. It’s all about Elon Musk. And they’re talking about, basically, Elon understands that showmanship is salesmanship. And I talk a lot about this, especially, like, in the design build world, where, like, the whole thing, it’s meant to feel like almost like a performance, where it’s like you’re on the whole time. Everything needs to feel like there’s a rhyme Or a reason when you present design, it’s not just like, hey, here’s your design, like we’re gonna, you know, email it over. Like to me, there should be an entire, like, you gotta be like a Billy Mays of your own stuff where you’re just like promoting what you’re doing, why you’re doing it. You’re creating the excitement.

Logan Shinholser
And all of that excitement needs to be captured in photos where if the photos don’t create excitement and create that level of somebody saying, wow, I want that in my home, they’re not doing the job that they’re supposed to be doing.

Aaron
Yeah, exactly.

Logan Shinholser
It’s more so showing that you could physically do something, but it’s the same. The difference between like an iPhone photo and like a professionally shot one is the difference of, let’s say you just did like a 12 week photo fitness challenge, you lost a lot of weight, you’re now ripped. If I took a photo of you with my iPhone just here in this room, it would look very different. Versus if you went to a studio, you got all like, you know, tan, they put the down lights on you. So like it’s all that stuff and then they capture the photo and then they, you know, in like they edited it at the end to make it look like that’s the difference.

Logan Shinholser
And that’s like, that’s what sells fitness programs because like it’s everybody’s kind of chasing like that idea of like the pump where it’s like you go to the gym and you walk out and like you look in the mirror and you’re a little bit bigger and then you’re like, oh, wow, if I can only look like this, then eventually you get to that place and then the next pump you have is like, oh, if I can only look like this. So it is kind of this never ending cycle. Yeah, but fitness programs sell because they put a lot of intentionality into what they look like. It’s bodybuilding, one one is you’re not going up on stage and just like jorts and a hairy chest. Like you’re gonna look, you know, like clean and stuff like that.

Aaron
Yeah, yeah. I mean, so you gotta think about like, what are people buying? Because they’re not buying the space itself. Like they’re not buying the kitchen. But it’s how they are they going to utilize the kitchen, where the new options are gonna have for hosting in their space and things like that. So the goal of your media, a lot of times people’s first dip into photography will be like, Well, I finish my work and I’ll just take a photo. Maybe if I’m really good, I’ll clean up the space and then I’ll take some intentional photos with my phone. But even that, you got to realize, isn’t. You aren’t selling the thing that they’re buying. Like, what they actually want at the end of the day is the experiences that they’re going to have in the space.

Aaron
And so your media needs to be able to capture that. And while that might sound kind of, like, vague, I think that when you break it down, what it means is the first thing is having the space clean and staged. So staging the space being like having decoration in there, A lot of times people do things that you don’t even really have in real life, like all these super nice fruit bowls and all the decorative towels and things like that. The idea is creating a heightened sense of reality that when people come in, it’s like a. How they would romanticize their kitchen looking. That’s what you’re trying to do with your photos because it’s. It’s letting your space speak for itself in the best way possible. Like, putting the best light on it you possibly can.

Aaron
Because so much is lost when you’re not in the space. You almost have to, like, make up for it with. With additional things in the photography and on the staging.

Logan Shinholser
Like, I remember, like, you guys went out. One of my friends here in Charlotte, it’s our realtor as well. But like, she. She moves houses, like, she does very well, but she has somebody whose role it is just to stage. So you guys went out and, like, spent like a day with her learning how to stage the home. So, like, what did you learn through that? If you think back, because I think it was a couple years ago, but, like, what was, like, some of, like, the key principles there that you took away?

Aaron
There was a lot of stuff that, like even being in photography and videography myself, that I was still not understanding about it. And while you guys listening to it don’t need to know all the ins and outs, you need to know enough that you can determine whether the person you’re hiring, when you’re looking at their portfolio, whether it aligns with this or not. So the idea being, like, a lot of times what I would do before that was people would have moved back into the space. Like, let’s say you finished a kitchen remodel and you’re coming back a few months later and people have their own stuff out. I’d be like, okay, well, it’s Staged. I mean, they’re using it. Maybe I would take off some stuff that looked cluttered and things like that.

Aaron
But when we walked through with her, there was a lot of stuff that we didn’t realize. She was like, get rid of this, get rid of this. Like, any sort of soap that was on the counter, she had us take that stuff down. Anything that wasn’t specifically there for design purposes, she would have us take out, like, anything that was like. You were like, well, we would have a paper towel rack in the kitchen. And she’s like, yeah, but you don’t need it in the photo. Instead of a paper towel rack there, it was like. I mean, she was even showing us things like getting stacks of cookbooks and little plants. And she would take the same plants and move them around the house, and you wouldn’t notice it was the same plant in a few different rooms.

Aaron
But she would use that to cover up corners. So where two different materials meet, kind of like a nice transition. If you look in the studio for people watching on YouTube, like, we literally have that in our corners here. It just makes the edges of the room feel nicer. Things like covering up outlets. There’s a ton of little things that I didn’t realize. When you go back through and you can go through and look at photographers portfolios now, if you look through it with that eye, you can tell a difference between people who are staging them very purposefully and people that came back and was like, well, this is just how their kitchen was set up, you know, Like, I still regret. There was one kitchen we did, and they. The homeowners just had all these red appliances, like a toaster and a mixer.

Aaron
And their coffee maker was all right. And I was like, well, it matches, so I guess I’ll just leave it all out. But it just didn’t go with the kitchen at all. And I just wish I had taken the time to take that stuff down and put up some more intentional stuff. So things like that going through and thinking about everything there should be for a design purpose, not a functional purpose. And while you might be thinking, well, that seems awkward, nobody would ever use a kitchen that way. It really doesn’t matter. That’s not what people are thinking about when they’re viewing the photos.

Logan Shinholser
You don’t want them, like, to have, like, you don’t want the focal point of the kitchen photo to be, like, the paper towel rack. It should be more on, like, you know, the farm sink or something that, like, you actually did. That’s design Focused.

Aaron
Not like, yeah, exactly. Because you’re taking this crazy in some cases, like multiple hundred thousand dollars remodels and then putting a $15 towel RAC over top of it. You know, I mean, like, it. It just doesn’t make sense.

Logan Shinholser
There was one I was showing. It was funny. I was showing it to Audrey, my wife, and it was like a bathroom. And I was like, what do you think? And she was like, I mean, this is great. But, like, they went like, why they use cheap hand towels? I was like, how do you know those are cheap hand towels? And she was like, I just do. And then we brought it into work here the next day, and I asked the team, and Sophia here was like, oh, I mean, that’s good. But, like, I don’t like those hand towels. They just don’t look nice. And I was like, how do you know that? She’s like, I just do.

Logan Shinholser
So it’s like, you know, like, people notice that stuff of, like, you know, you don’t want to do a really nice kitchen and, you know, first floor remodel and then throw in, like, an IKEA futon in there. Because it just, like, it paints the wrong picture. It draws the wrong focus. So the staging part is huge because it paints the story associated with it. Talk to us a bit more about, like, lighting and the other components of it, because I feel like the staging and then we’ll get in, like, the actual shots, but the staging helps the story component of it to a certain extent. What about, like, lighting? And are there any other, like, important elements just to, like, look out for when you’re trying to determine good photos, bad photos, things like that?

Aaron
Yeah, there’s a few things. So one of this distinctions to make when you’re looking for a photographer is the different types of photographers. A lot of people will immediately look for a real estate photographer because that does seem to be the. If you don’t know all the different kinds, that seems to be the one that’s most in line with what you’re trying to do. But what you should actually be looking for is either an architectural photographer or an interior design photographer. And while you might, the differences might not be immediately apparent to you. Once I tell them to you’ll start to see them. So the first thing like you’re asking about is lighting. A lot of times, if you’re going for a real estate photographer, their goal is to make this space look as big as possible and as bright as possible.

Aaron
That’s not always the goal with your space. There are a Lot of times where you’re doing a kitchen or something or a space, and the idea is it’s supposed to be a darker, moodier space. And if you bring in somebody that only knows how to make it bright, especially if they come in and they bring in their own lighting and everything, it completely messes up the feeling. It comes off. It’s too. A lot of times will come off as is clinical, very sterile, very polished. And not that polish is bad, but you don’t want it to feel overly touched up and inauthentic. So the photographers that ironically are the best at this are the ones who don’t use lighting or use very minimal lighting so it looks very natural in the photos.

Aaron
You’ll notice things where they have like natural sunbeams coming through the windows. They’re shooting at the best time of day. That’s a big thing as well. It’s thinking about even in an interior space, when should I shoot this to get the best light to come in through the windows? Because that’s going to make a difference. Maybe if it’s that golden hour, there’ll be a nice glow in the room or something like that. So when it comes to lighting, just finding a photographer or somebody that has the ability to do a wide range of emotions and you go through and not everything looks the exact same. Clean, pristine, very bright, white, airy. That kind of stuff that works in some spaces. But you want to make sure that they have the capability to do more than that.

Logan Shinholser
Okay, so real estate photographer, it’s a lot of wide shots. It’s like basically the way that I explain to people is like, go stand in the corner of your room and take a photo. And that’s basically like what you’re gonna get.

Aaron
Yeah, 100%. And there’ll be, you know, there’s more things about, like they’ll do it at eye level and they’ll do it at this, you know, with a wide angle lens and all that kind of stuff. But 100%, that’s what they’re trained on, what their whole goal is. They work with realtors and they are trying to work out volume play. They’re doing it for less money. There’s nothing wrong with it. It’s just a different industry. And the whole idea is just show people what the room looks like, move on.

Logan Shinholser
Yeah. Cause a lot of what they’re doing is basically trying to show the room and then have the person like the stuff enough, like the photos enough to go, okay, I want to now go tour that house. Yeah, you can’t really do that with remodeling where it’s like, oh, this looks great, let me go knock on this person’s door and walk through their kitchen. So the photos need to basically get what the feeling of let me go tour that house. Like what you’re going to get out of actually touring the house, but in the photos themselves.

Aaron
Yeah, that’s a great point. That’s a great point. A lot of times those photographers would. Unless you specifically have a good relationship with a real estate photographer and you can show them what you’re looking for, then by default they will miss a bunch of the key features or things that you need to highlight.

Logan Shinholser
And a lot of times they just don’t know it necessarily. Cause their mindset is go in there, be efficient, get in, get out, get these up on MLS and you’re done. But the, you know, moving into like an architectural and there’s even a difference of like architectural versus like interior design photography where it’s, you know, architectural is like more design focused. But they’re. Most architects are going to be more big space, big picture items, while interior design is more on like the little fixtures and the features and stuff like that. So can you talk more about I guess like what the approach of maybe like an architectural photographer versus interior design photographer is going to take?

Aaron
Yeah, I think that the main thing to note with both of them is just making sure that you have a wide variety of shots. So there’s obviously the wide shot of the entire space. That’s what your real estate photographer will get. Then you have more vignettes is what some people call them. But shots that highlight little areas of the space, whether it’s like a, a reading nook or a coffee station or just the dining table area. Things that specifically highlight just little bits of the room, little different use cases and then beyond that. And this might be where even more an interior design photographer we get into is really highlighting close ups on the finishes that you chose. Like texturing, getting close ups of like your tile work, of the cabinetry, of the faucets, things like that.

Aaron
That kind of stuff is so important just because you can tell people all day long you have quality work. But one of the easiest ways to do it is people want to go up and they want to inspect it. They want to look at the fine details and that kind of stuff. Doing that with your photos. So being able to go through and take, making sure that you’re not missing those detail oriented shots. Especially if there’s little things like upsells like if there’s add on features that people typically get, being able to flesh those out with some photography and videography will help to show future people what it could look like if they get it.

Logan Shinholser
Yeah. And like the way that I like to think about this on like the close up shots and how to like angle them and stuff. And it’s. If you’re like standing in the corner of a kitchen and you see like, oh, there’s like a really cool range hood and you like it, you’re not just going to stand back there and look, you’re going to walk up, pretty much get square on it.

Aaron
Yeah.

Logan Shinholser
And look at it. And that’s basically then like the photography should do that where it’s like, you know, to be able to then have like each of the features that you really want to highlight. And the way to kind of think about this is like what were some of the things that, you know, the problems that were trying to be solved in the space that you then, you know, did something to address that in the actual project. You then want to capture those things. So it’s, you know, if somebody was like, look, I hated having just like the builder grade microwave exhaust above the stove. I wanted something that was more of like a focal point. So you had like a custom range hood made. Like you then want to give, you know, that thing justice and have nice photos of it.

Logan Shinholser
So it’s, you know, it’s a lot of like that you still want the wide angle shot. So it’s not just like you can only get close ups but it’s, you know, have a nice wide angle of the space then having like the medium, then having the close up. So it’s like basically, you know, you don’t have to use all the photos that you know, you could get all that stuff. But it sucks to like, you know, look at the photos and come back and go, wow, I wish we would have gotten closer ups of these things just to really like articulate that and show that. So the close ups are important for sure because it highlights that craftsmanship that like you’re really trying to get across.

Logan Shinholser
But like don’t think that you can only do close ups because you still want the wide shots just as like would you consider that like an establishing shot?

Aaron
Yeah, 100%. Well, I mean, heck. And then we even get establishing shots of the home in the context of the area as well. But yeah, establishing shot for the room.

Logan Shinholser
And what is an establishing shot?

Aaron
So it’s just something to give the rest of the photos, context. Again, the way to think about it is exactly what you said. Like, people can’t actually go through and walk through these spaces. So if you want your work to speak for itself, you need to replicate that experience as closely as possible. So when you walk in a room, you kind of take survey of the whole space. You have context, and then you go up and you’ll look at key details and things that interest you more. But without the context of the space, it can be kind of confusing. And oftentimes it can make. It doesn’t put a whole picture in the person’s mind. Your idea is that by the time they look through all your photos, they could basically try. It depends on how artistic they are, I guess.

Aaron
But the idea is that in their mind, they could recreate what that space feels like. And so the establishing shots give context for everything else. But then outside of that, like I was saying, the photos of the home, photos of the area, those can be helpful as well to throw into the mix. I more so do this in the videos themselves in the photos. So maybe I. Maybe I’ll hold off on that.

Logan Shinholser
Yeah, because I. We used to do this for my dad’s old company. And like, at first it was just like, just the ponds. And it became like, well, we need the neighborhood as well, because otherwise, like, you have no idea where we’re actually doing this. Because it’s just a backyard.

Aaron
Yep.

Logan Shinholser
On photography, like, last thing, when it comes to, like, hiring photographers, you know, we’ve heard it of like, hey, what if I just go out and buy, like, a really nice camera? Can I just do it myself? And. And I don’t know. This is 100% accurate. I’m pretty sure it’s accurate, but I tell people, I’m like, look, don’t. Like, it’s not the actual, like, camera itself. Like, that does make a difference. But like, basically, Steven Spielberg with an iPhone is going to beat you all day long than, you know, you with, like, the most expensive camera out there.

Aaron
So, yeah, no, professional photographers, like, one of the genres on YouTube that’s like, popular, like a video theme is like this crazy professional with an iPhone versus an amateur with all this crazy equipment. Every single time, the professional wins. Every single time. Every video I’ve ever watched on it, the professional wins because it’s a lot more about the techniques and things like that rather than the. Especially because iPhones at this point are very solid in the right conditions if you know how to work them.

Logan Shinholser
And is that because of the technique of Knowing how to stage and light and what to capture, or is that also in the edit afterwards?

Aaron
Yeah, it’s both. Okay. Yeah.

Logan Shinholser
How important is the edit afterwards?

Aaron
No, no, I would say very important. Because a lot of times what people are doing, without getting too technical, it is important that the person also is going to take care of the editing themselves. Because one of the things if you’re doing the natural lighting photography is they’re actually. Every time they take a photo, they’re taking usually at least three. And they take one that exposes for the windows. So the windows look the best. Like, the bright areas look good. Then the ones where the medium areas look good and then the super dark areas in the corners of the room, those look good. And then the edit, they take all three of those photos and combine them together. So without getting too. Yeah, yeah, that part’s important.

Logan Shinholser
So that’s the whole. Because I remember we did that with like, outdoor lighting and I went out there with my iPhone 10 years ago and tried to capture outdoor lighting and look terrible. And then we hired a professional that basically what they did was they set up like a series of cameras and over the span of like 4 hours as the sun was setting, it would take like a photo every, I don’t know, 15 minutes. And then like, basically, I guess, like stitched them together so it was like the right sky, the right lighting, you know, so it was like all of that combined. Sounds like it’s kind of like the same thing, 100%. And then when it comes to, like, the photographers, like the way that.

Logan Shinholser
Because I’ve helped a lot of clients find photographers, basically what I do is I just go to their area and I just first type interior design photographer or architectural photographer and see if anybody pulls up in Google. And if not, then I’ll go through and just type in like real estate photographer. And then basically I will pull open probably anywhere from 30 to 50 websites and I will go through it, because you can very quickly.

Aaron
Yeah. See when you know what you’re looking for.

Logan Shinholser
Yeah. Because I would say, you know, half of them are not just real estate photographers. They’re really like portrait or like graduation or things like that. And I immediately exclude those. Then I go through the real estate photographers. Then you’re going to have half of those are people that are really more of like drone and like matterport people. I get rid of those and then that leaves the remaining half dozen, if you will, that I then look through their photos to see are we mostly doing, you know, very bright and wide angle Are they actually able to capture other, you know, like, the features that matter? And that’s basically how I’ll take, like, a list of like, 50 down to, like, hey, here’s two people that I think would work well for what you do.

Aaron
Yeah.

Logan Shinholser
And I just. But I’m able to do that whole thing in, honestly, about 15 minutes. The thing that takes the longest is opening up each tab on my browser, because I can very quickly. And you would be shocked at how quickly. Like, you know, once you do this one time, or even if you just went on, like, Instagram and looked at, like, West Elm or, like, Restoration Hardware photos, like, if you just said, okay, this is like, has to be pretty close to this, that’s what you’re aiming for?

Aaron
Like. Yeah, you want your photos to look much more like a catalog, a design catalog or a magazine, rather than like something you’d find on Zillow.

Logan Shinholser
Yeah. And I would say just from a price point perspective, the most expensive that a client’s ever hired somebody for was three grand a project. But this photographer, I mean, it was the best. It’s best photographer I’ve ever seen.

Aaron
And by project, do you mean like a. A home or a single room?

Logan Shinholser
They. This photographer, she. That was like, you would get like, one project per day. So I believe that was. It could be a home, it could be one room. This client does, like, larger stuff, but, like, she, the photographer is also going out there and staging. So, yeah, basically the way that it worked was she went to our client and said, hey, bring some items that you think would, like, help bring out the colors in the space. But then, like, the photographer would then actually stage it, take a bunch of photos. I mean, it was like they were on site for six and a half hours going through all the photos. We just got them back last week, and they’re like. I mean, I emailed the photographer. I was like, hey, these are immaculate.

Logan Shinholser
Like, these are so good that, like, it will make the website pop so well. Yeah, but, you know, so, like, that’s the high end is like the three grand. I’ve seen them as low as 500 bucks a shoot. But that’s going to be more like a remote. Not remote. Like you’re in the middle of nowhere. But it’s like, yeah, you’re not. I mean, this is not a metro area. Yeah, exactly. So it’s, you know, I kind of tell people, like, hey, for what you’re doing, like, I would just look at, like, a grand as like, a good rule of thumb. If it goes up A little bit goes down a little bit. That’s, that’s fine. But it’s like photographers.

Logan Shinholser
I mean even like that outdoor lighting example, I contacted the guy and we agreed to do the photos, I believe in like April of whatever year it was. And the photos finally were captured in September and then edited by November.

Aaron
Oh, wow.

Logan Shinholser
So it was very much like he was an artist, if you will. And what I learned throughout the process was like, you know, you needed a special lens or camera, which he had to reach out to all of his other artists, photography buddies to then borrow enough cameras. And then even when he got all the cameras where nobody else was shooting on that day so he could use them, then the weather came into it as well. So it was a lot of stuff that like, I’m sure it made his job a lot harder. But it also like, I mean it wasn’t, I wouldn’t go back to him again, even though it was tough because of like the communication style of things. But it, the photos turned out great. It just was a bit of a process.

Aaron
Cool.

Logan Shinholser
It’s cool. All right, so that’s photography.

Aaron
Yep.

Logan Shinholser
Videography. This is your jam. Before we talk about testimonials, talk to us about the difference of like different styles of videography. Because you’ve got your social media and you’re like TikTok style, then you’ve got your long form YouTube educational, then you got your like persuasive testimonials. So what are the different styles? Because truth be told, it’s different skill sets that are actually able to do each of the styles. So what would you say the different styles are as it relates to the remodeling industry?

Aaron
Yeah, that’s a good question. So easy delineations to make is social media somebody that’s primarily shooting on low budget camera or their phone, but the whole idea is they just are excited about posting it, getting engagement views, that kind of stuff. Like somebody that likes to follow the trends. They’d be more like good at capturing the culture, maybe creating some funny videos for your company, that kind of stuff. If you’re at that point, then you have like your film school student. That’s typically what you’ll find is somebody that wants to make movies basically, but can’t and isn’t in the area to do.

Aaron
So that kind of person is going to be somebody that is really focused on the technical equipment of the cameras, making sure everything looks absolutely perfect and pristine, really making the media itself the highest quality possible, making sure that it’s just top of the Line with, as far as the visuals are concerned, like.

Logan Shinholser
The audio looks good, the color grading is good. So like, because I’ve seen. I didn’t realize that color grading, which is basically going back and like making sure that like the colors look good. I didn’t realize that was a whole thing until, yeah, we started doing that. Then when you see like the before and after, you’re like, oh, wow. I didn’t realize how not bad it looked before, but just how it was like the difference of like the real estate photographer versus the interior design photographer from like a lighting perspective.

Aaron
Yeah, it’s one of those things. You don’t know this until you see it. Like a lot of times what people will say in their head is this thing looks cinematic or this thing looks like a movie and. And this thing doesn’t and they won’t know why. And a lot of times the two breakdowns are like lighting and then color grading. Composition also plays a part. But there’s a lot of those invisible factors that you’re like, you recognize them, you just don’t know. You don’t have the vocabulary for them. So yeah, color grading is one of those things. So you have those two. And then the last thing I would say is like your long form YouTube videographer, somebody that’s better prone towards maybe interviews or informational videos.

Aaron
Somebody that’s less gifted when it comes to the visuals of it, but they’re more versed in how do I get information across to people? What’s the overall point of what I’m making? How do I achieve this end goal? It’s still creative and things like that, but they’re more focused on the function of the video than. Than just a purely aesthetic one. So I’d say those are your three main kinds probably.

Logan Shinholser
So the first one, just to kind of recap, you have like your social media. And when we say social media, we’re not talking like YouTube in this case, we’re talking more of like really Instagram and TikTok where it’s like, they’re good, they’re energetic, they can make it work for 60 seconds. It’s gonna capture people’s attention. That’s like your social media type person.

Aaron
Yeah, somebody that like. Cause their skill set is really being able to speak into like the larger culture and create something that will resonate with people and get traction. So like their whole thing is like, okay, this thing’s trending right now. How can we apply that to our business?

Logan Shinholser
Got it. And then you have your film student that’s like More cinematic. What? In the realm of, like, the remodeling space, what kind of videos would they be good for? Or is it really just like. What you’re saying is they just have a skill set that they’re going to try to apply that whether they’re hired for social media or for the long form?

Aaron
No, 100%. That’s what happens. A lot of times, people, they’ll end up. Because it’s helpful to know when you’re hiring a videographer, what is their skill set? Because people will take one, they’ll be like, he’s a videographer. He’ll do all of our media stuff. And that person can. But you got to understand where their strong suits are and where they’re lacking and going to need. Like, in relationship, you have things that you will deal with and things you won’t. Like with a videographer, you’d have to figure out, okay, these are the areas that I’m okay compromising on. Like, we’re gonna have to have additional training or things like that for them. But these are the ones that, like, if they’re asking me what questions to ask in a testimonial, I can’t. I can’t have that.

Logan Shinholser
Okay. Because I know, like, one of my buddies had, like, a media company, and he was explaining, like, yeah, there’s a lot of photographers out there that, like, they’ll be so happy because the lighting at this wedding that they shot looks beautiful. But, like, in the photo, they show me, like, there’s a dog going to the bathroom in the background. And, like, yeah, you know, you miss the whole story, but you’re so into, like, the lighting is perfect. And how it hit was, like, exactly what I want. And that’s basically what you’re describing here on the Film Student. And I know that’s like. Because there’s a lot of film students that come out, there’s not really much in the realm of work, you know, or it’s more limited, if you will.

Aaron
Yeah.

Logan Shinholser
So they’re just gonna be focused on. Everything’s gonna look really good. But is the story actually there. Are they basically just overcomplicating something that’s going to get three views?

Aaron
Man, that happens all the time.

Logan Shinholser
Yeah.

Aaron
Yeah, that happens a lot. I just think of all the different videographers that. Or different clients we’ve had that have talked to us about their videographer. And that is the main problem people have. And it’s not that you can’t work with those kind of people. It’s just that if you’re going to do that. You need to have enough structure, and hopefully the content that we’re making here would give them enough structure to be able to organize that. Because we’ve worked with. I mean, at cgn, we’ve had people that are specifically focused on things like that. And if you can give them some guidance, it’s not that they’re dumb. They just. That’s not the thing they love. That’s not the thing that excites them. So it’s like being able to. If you can give them that structure, then that will work out.

Aaron
You just have to realize you’re going to have to do that.

Logan Shinholser
Okay. And that type of person is probably not going to be the best hire for anybody listening to this. If they’re going to go out and hire either that company or that person internally, because they’re gonna focus so much on how it looks, and they’re gonna need a lot more direction on the story and how it needs to come together more.

Aaron
So I think it depends on your personal competency. Like, there are some of our clients where I would recommend that, like, there’s some people that they have such a good. Again, like, this is where the previous episode and the previous two episodes make such a big difference. Like, having a solid understanding of who your ideal client is and what message you’re trying to put out. If you really feel like you’re strong on that stuff and you can give guidance. I mean, there’s some clients we’ve seen that have done really well because they’ve been able to take their videographer and be like, yeah, but you’re missing the point.

Logan Shinholser
Like, so if it’s almost like, if you enjoy that, it seems like if.

Aaron
You enjoy that, then, yeah, fantastic.

Logan Shinholser
Yeah. I just. I don’t know any clients that are necessarily like that. They can do it, but there’s a difference between they can do it versus, like, that’s what excites them. Yeah, like that. That’s the big thing where. I mean, even with.

Aaron
Is it going to cost you a ton of energy to go through?

Logan Shinholser
Correct. Then is that going to be a thing where, like, is that person then eventually going to get it, or are you always going to have to provide direction? Which, again, if you enjoy that, you’re going to have a really good video and really good product because it’s going to look good and it’s going to have your direction and, like, an understanding of what is what. But you’re always going to have to kind of be that person unless that, you know Unless the idea is that they will eventually get it.

Aaron
Yeah.

Logan Shinholser
But again, it’s kind of like, you know, they’re going to. They have to almost like fall in love with the storytelling component of it.

Aaron
Yeah.

Logan Shinholser
Just as much as, like the technical component of it. So my vote, and this is coming from a business owner, would be don’t hire that type of person. Unless, like, I just wouldn’t hire that type of person. Like, you could. It’s not that you can’t have somebody that, like, you know, you don’t want somebody who doesn’t care about that stuff. But, like, if that is their whole thing, they’re gonna have a very specific. They’re good within, like a team, but not as like a standalone in my mind.

Aaron
No, I actually you probably are closer to right on that. Because I’m thinking even in our past experience, when I was looking for people to join our team, the final delineation became down to a candidate who we felt had stronger visuals and a candidate who had stronger interviewing skills. And went with the interviewing skills version. So it’s. There is a spectrum there, and it’s like, you don’t want to sacrifice too much. But at the end of the day, I think you. You are probably right.

Logan Shinholser
Because if you’re. If you are Michael Bay like that, it’s a different scenario. Or if you’re trying to build out like an entire, like, production team for your work and go all in on that, again, it’s different. But most people are just going to have one either videographer that they work with or they have in house, and it’s like a different thing.

Aaron
So, yeah, if you have a ton of infrastructure, then you can do it. But if not.

Logan Shinholser
Yeah, yeah. Let’s talk about the long form. The person that is interviewing, they’re trying. They’re there to basically get like a lot of information across versus the short form, which is something that’s just trying to get a bunch of views on social.

Aaron
Yeah. So then the last person you’re looking for is somebody like that one person. And these are things that can kind of come out in your interviews with them. As you’re looking at it. Then it’s like YouTube videographers more so the job application you’ll be putting out there, but you want somebody who, like, again, wants to be a YouTuber but probably doesn’t have the Runway to make that happen. It takes a long time to build up a following or they. They just can’t quite make that work. And so they can make videos for a company that would pay them. So then that’s what you’re looking for. In that case, they’re going to be more focused on getting a message across.

Aaron
Ideally you’ll have somebody that is more comfortable scripting things out, planning things out, writing things, thinking about the overall message of the video itself. Their downside is they will tend to overly rely on just words to tell the story or that’s how they could fault. And we’ll see those testimonials too, where it would be somebody that just talks for five minutes and there’s rarely any visuals breaking it up and the person saying really nice things, like maybe it was a good interview and they got him to get emotional and that kind of stuff. But without that additional media it loses interest fairly quickly.

Logan Shinholser
And that like this style of person, this is Aaron, just everybody out there knows that’s you. We’re like, you know, if you had to figure out the 60 second viral stuff, you could do it. If you had to do like the technical stuff, like the videos look good, but it’s more so like if all you have was an iPhone, you could still go out there and produce a good video because you would just make it work because it’s more about the story. And that’s honestly the kind of what social media is showing us now, where you don’t have to have it be super polished necessarily where you don’t have to have like that. MICHAEL BAY EDITOR but the storyline and the visuals have to be there.

Logan Shinholser
That’s something that like I, I learned through a lot of this was like story brand, like everybody here has to read Story brand. Big fans of it. The only downside that we happens with storybrand was that we followed it so much to a te that we kind of realized that a lot of the visuals are part of the story. Yes, we were trying so hard. So storybrand, basically, it’s a book, it’s really good, but it breaks down. How do you actually tell a story about what you do? And it cuts through the noise. So it’s not just you talking about like technical crap that you know your prospects don’t care about.

Logan Shinholser
And it basically comes into like you have a, the homeowner has a problem which then has a consequence and then they have to be able to find a guide that’s going to come in and help them out because the guide has been there before and they take you through a specific process and at the end of the process you either have victory, which is you succeed or you have failure and then you Bring up what the failure is.

Aaron
Yeah.

Logan Shinholser
And basically what were doing was were focusing so heavily on the problem going, well, if we can just get the problem across, then each of these six steps should be its own length of time. But in reality, a lot of what were doing was were spending a minute on the homeowner just explaining their problem.

Aaron
Yeah. If you read the books and that kind of thing, your immediate thing would be to go overboard. At least it was for me. And what we did, it was for.

Logan Shinholser
I mean, all of us. Yeah. We were like, this is great. Let’s do it. And we thought the videos were good until we showed it to somebody, and he goes, I mean, this is pretty boring. And I was like, you know what? It is pretty boring.

Aaron
Honestly, I’m with you. Because what I thought at first was we wanted to make something that was like hgtv, and we wanted to make something that, like, you empathize with the homeowners, and you need to get them on your side, and you really need to care about, like, Joan from Arkansas. Like. Like, that was the most random name I could have come up with. Joe.

Logan Shinholser
I was like, he must have just watched an episode.

Aaron
I did it. But I thought, like, okay, in order to keep somebody engaged, keep them watching this testimonial, we need to make sure they care about Joan. Well, you know, it’s way easier is showing them the space, because they already care about the space. And, like, one of the big things that helped me find this out was when were running ads for people and we put in all this work on making the correct story and having this thing, and the ads that performed the best were the ones that had the visual of the vanity. Yeah.

Logan Shinholser
It was like it was the end result up front.

Aaron
Yeah.

Logan Shinholser
Because what we kind of realized was you don’t care about Joan from Arkansas unless you like her project.

Aaron
Yeah. Otherwise, why would you care?

Logan Shinholser
You don’t care about her at all.

Aaron
Yeah.

Logan Shinholser
And we also learned that with hgtv, it’s a lot of, like, you’re there because first off, it’s hgtv, so you know the result’s gonna be good.

Aaron
Yeah.

Logan Shinholser
Like, you just automatically have that trust and rapport built up with Chip and Joanna. You have that built up with hgtv, so you’re willing to stick it out for the hour, but you don’t know if it’s, you know, Joe Schmo’s remodeling company, if it’s gonna. If the payoff is gonna be there at the end.

Aaron
Yeah, exactly.

Logan Shinholser
So you get the payoff at the beginning.

Aaron
Well, it’s honestly kind of like, a funny example, too, because, like, one of the things you’ll notice about those is, like, Chip and Joanna, like, they do this. The design stuff, but it’s like, they’re not like contractors in the same sense. Like, the people who are actually doing the work. HGTV doesn’t even show those people. You know what I mean? So it’s kind of like. So it’s just realizing that when you’re talking about the story itself, like, here’s a good example of how I do things differently now and what you should look for with a videographer. On this last project went out to, and I’ve talked about a bunch on the last few podcasts, just because it’s the stuff I’m going through right now. Michelangelo Renaissance, he builds decks. And the client story is through the interview.

Aaron
What I found out was every single week, he invites his neighbors over, and they. They hang out on the deck for a few hours. They have drinks. They talk like his house is the gathering space. And when Michelangelo told me the story of the deck, it was, hey, man, this guy’s got to shovel off snow in the. In the wintertime, because we get a ton of snow, and the deck is cantilevered into the house. And so when it gets too much snow on there, it’s lifting up the rest of the house, and it’s like a actual structural problem, which is a big deal. When I talked to him, he mentioned that, but what he cared about was having a space that he felt safe for his friends to come over.

Logan Shinholser
So it’s more about the friends.

Aaron
It was more about.

Logan Shinholser
So the safety was like a means to an end, really.

Aaron
Yeah, because. Because, again, like, while the structural stuff is bad, the structure, it’s only bad if it stops him from doing what he wants to do. So what was funny is I actually cut all that out of the video, and were able to be there on Tuesday night when he had his friends over. And so then instead of giving a ton of context of why he loves. Like, previously, I would have said, I love doing this. It’s so important. Why is it so important to you to have these friends over? Like, what kind of satisfaction do you get from that? Or, why was this worth doing this? Blah, blah. Instead of doing all that, have your videographer come over at a time when people are going to be using the space or even host a party some.

Aaron
You know, if it’s a bathroom, it’s different. But for social space. For social spaces. Show them using the space. Because then the visuals of them drinking and laughing together do so much more than you could ever say about, like, why it’s so important to have that space. So I cut out all those details about, like, the cantilever and all the technical reasons, the thing that Michelangelo cared about. And I just left in the parts with like, the best thing of the whole time is when he’s having a drink and he takes a drink and his friend next to him looks over and laughs. It’s like, that’s what we’re selling. There is the. Okay, now I have a space to do this regularly. So that’s a good example of that kind of story. Yeah.

Logan Shinholser
And what’s interesting about this is, like, it’s still story, but like, you’re. I mean, I did this, like, in that stand up comedy class where they were basically like, you know, what makes jokes funny on or in life is not necessarily like the actual, like, joke itself, but it’s the lead up and the context behind it. You don’t have 10 minutes on stage to tell the background of, like, your relationship. So you got to figure out how to get the setup as quick as possible.

Aaron
Yeah.

Logan Shinholser
And that’s kind of like, you know, we could sit here and at the end, you know, we used to like, always bring in like, hey, if somebody’s on the fence of hiring Renaissance, like, what would you say to them? But what’s way better than that is just having a sound bite from the homeowner go, yeah, I actually just hired them for another project because there’s no way that the homeowner is going to hire you again if it wasn’t a good scenario.

Aaron
Yeah.

Logan Shinholser
So like, people, by basically like giving you a testimonial with their wallet, but just saying that, like, that is the best validation that it was a good outcome and a good experience. So it’s like, it’s still story brand. And this is what I think we used to do on, like, websites as well. That was an issue where, like, what we forgot was we thought like, oh, we have to build up all this emotion. But in reality, the emotion is in the photos.

Aaron
Yes.

Logan Shinholser
Like, it’s not that you have to sit here and like, you know, it.

Aaron
Doesn’T need to be two paragraphs. No.

Logan Shinholser
And it was a lot of that of like, imagine walking into your home and this and this. But in reality it’s more of like, you know, you just show the visual.

Aaron
And just say, like, they will imagine.

Logan Shinholser
Yes, exactly.

Aaron
You don’t have to tell them to do that.

Logan Shinholser
And if you do the photos the way that we just talked about it, that will get the point across. It’s visual storytelling versus trying to force this thing. So that is where, like the testimonial videos that we do, they used to be like six, seven minutes long. Now they’re two, three.

Aaron
Yeah. Two to three minutes. Sometimes one and a half.

Logan Shinholser
Yeah. I mean, which is like. It’s the whole Mark Twain thing of, like, I would have written a shorter note if I had the time. It’s like, it’s a lot. I mean, this is what we did in stand up comedy where it’s like you take. You write 15 minutes of material and then you go through and you just cut it down to five by reducing all the pieces that, like, this little piece doesn’t add to the story. Get rid of it. And it’s like, well, it’s like the buildup. And they’re like, for example, you would never, in comedy say, well, I said this and then you said that, and then I said this. You just, you just skip all that and you just do the voices. And that gets the point across faster. So it’s.

Logan Shinholser
It’s that in the videos is like the big thing.

Aaron
Yeah, yeah. So like the snow thing, big deal. For Michelangelo, it didn’t add to the story of him wanting to have a space with his friends.

Logan Shinholser
And we’ve had awkward scenarios kind of from us where it’s like, it’s a very emotionally charged scenario, but it. That the contracting company’s explaining, but because it doesn’t align with the final. I mean, hell, even for, like, on this podcast, were talking about, like, hey, do we then talk about how to use photos and how to use videos in your marketing? We’re like, well, that actually is not the point of this episode. This episode’s all about what is good, what is bad. And how do you then determine who do you hire for it? We’ll talk about later about how the photos need to then be represented on the website or how to use them for assignment selling. But, like, that would then you confuse the whole point of this episode.

Logan Shinholser
And that’s kind of the same thing where it’s like you’re trying to get a storyline across. And the snow stuff, while it may be, again, nice to have it’s. Yeah, I was, you know, I did listen to a podcast with Steve Jobs, and basically, I’m sorry, it’s a book that the former creative director for the agency that worked with Apple, Steve Jobs, wanted to Put a bunch of different, like, things into this one commercial. And what the exec did was he balled up five pieces of paper, threw it at Steve and said catch. He missed them all. And then balled up one, threw it at Steven, said catch. And he caught it. He was like, that’s exactly what happens when you try to pack too many points into one thing versus only having one thing.

Aaron
Exactly.

Logan Shinholser
And that’s like the same idea here is it has to align with what the outcome of the story is. And if it doesn’t, strip it.

Aaron
Yeah, so. So finding yourself a videographer who can think about things in that way. So what you’re looking for when you’re hiring them is people that like, well, I mean, what we did is we did a mock testimonial, was like, hey, I’m gonna pretend to be the homeowner. You’re interviewing me.

Logan Shinholser
And what you talking about is hiring them, like for in house. This is not hiring a videographer company to do a shoot for you. What you’re talking about right now.

Aaron
That’s true. Yeah.

Logan Shinholser
If you’re bringing them in house.

Aaron
Yeah, yeah. Either way, you want somebody who can focus on that kind of stuff. But yeah, that’s what we did was in house. Cause then you have a little bit more of a long term process for it. But the whole point is finding somebody who can get to the root of the idea. This is the thing we’re selling. And then express that through video. That’s the important thing. Like what a bad testimonial is one that you can’t make it through. You know, it’s a. It’s eight minutes and you’d be like, well, but they’re saying a lot of good things. Like, well, we know they’re gonna say good things. They’re on camera talking for your company. Like, they’re not going to say bad things. The thing that would be interesting is if they said bad things. Yeah.

Logan Shinholser
Then you definitely watch it.

Aaron
Then you watch it.

Logan Shinholser
Yeah. So like, I know it’s like very common where I talk to somebody and they’re like, oh, I just hired somebody to come shoot my projects. And I’m like, let me guess, was it somebody from church? Like, yeah, how’d you know? And I’m like, everybody does that where they go out and hire the videographer from church. But the issue is that live streaming church is very different than.

Aaron
It’s a different skillset.

Logan Shinholser
It’s a completely different skill set.

Aaron
So the thing that was helpful for me was spending so much Time with our sales department and on the early shoots. Chris, our lead salesperson at the time, was going out with us and he was doing the testimonial with me, which was painful and awkward at first, but it helped me look at everything from that perspective instead of just checking the boxes of like, did I ask this question? Did I ask this one? It was like, okay, what is the heart of the issue? What’s the thing behind the thing?

Logan Shinholser
Yeah, it. Otherwise, you know, it would have been like, hey, like homeowner, like, you got snow out here, right? And they’re like, well, yeah. He’s like, you’re like, great, repeat that for me on camera. And like, we get snow. And you’re like, perfect. That’s problem. Now let’s go into solution. So it’s like you’re just missing the whole point of what it really is. And that’s. Then you get into like the fun stuff of like the pacing of it, the music selections, things like that. And then as they’re speaking and they’re explaining this stuff, having visuals where if they’re like, hey, I want to, you know, I love entertaining on this deck. Like it’s great to have the visuals of people on the deck as they’re saying it versus what we see a lot of is they’re just sitting there on their.

Logan Shinholser
Not even in their deck maybe, or maybe they’re just like on their couch or whatever, but they’re just like explaining it to you. And then it’s.

Aaron
And they just go on.

Logan Shinholser
They just go on. And there’s no visuals, there’s no way to cut it up. So there’s a lot that goes into that. But like, if you’re going to hire, there’s a lot of people just have their in house social person that does the 60 second videos, then go out and do testimonials. But a lot of it. I was talking to somebody last week that they’re about to do this. I was like, look, I’ll send you over the questions that we always ask. But these questions, you don’t want to be like, hey, what was the problem you had? Then Aaron goes, I wanted to redo my kitchen.

Aaron
I just didn’t like it.

Logan Shinholser
Yeah, okay, great. Now why’d you hire us? Like it just, it’s not what you say, it’s how you say. It’s the same thing with sales where it’s like, okay, what made you want to do like, what didn’t you like about it? You know, Then you go through your Whole thing. So, I mean, you and I, we used to do role plays along this stuff of, like, how do you get deeper and how do you actually pull out the emotion? Because in reality, it’s. It’s not really. You didn’t like it.

Aaron
Yeah.

Logan Shinholser
You didn’t spend $200,000 and have somebody in your house for four months because you didn’t like it. There was something that was there that you just got to find what that end result is. And I would say, like, with what you’ve done over the past, you know, three, four years of doing this is like, the. The depth that these things go is so much further compared to what it was of. Just like, oh, you don’t like it? Like, great. We’ll show visuals of, like, how ugly it was. But now it was like, yeah, what couldn’t you do?

Aaron
Because what I would do before is like, well, tell me how ugly it was. Like, well, this was ugly, and this was ugly. And then what I found out was much easier is just for them to say, yeah, it was ugly, and then show a picture. And then everybody can look and be like, oh, yeah, I don’t like that. Like, I’ll do that part myself. I don’t need them to tell me what’s ugly.

Logan Shinholser
Videos or anything else that, you know, went through the social media type of person and what they’re good at, it’s more entertainment and content. Then you have your technical person that I would personally not hire. Unless you’re, like, set up for that. And then you have your. It’s not like they’re bad. It’s just. They have. Yeah, it’s.

Aaron
No, no, you explain yourself. Yeah.

Logan Shinholser
And then you have your storytelling, which is really what I think is the most impactful one that you definitely need. Anything that we’re missing?

Aaron
I don’t think so. Outside of that, then the last caveat, I would just say quickly is remember what they’re there for. They want to. They’re clicking on the video because they want to see the space. They want to have an idea of what it looks like. And possibly they want to suss you out and make sure what you’re doing is good. But then selfishly for themselves, they want to get design ideas of, like, oh, I like how they did this. Oh, I didn’t think to incorporate something like that. So the more you can pepper that stuff throughout, then you can have a little bit of leeway to mix in, like, how you were helpful and things like that. But the person watching, that’s what they’re watching for. So always one of the things is always have a visual of what the space looks like.

Aaron
Make sure that is visually compelling the whole time. They should be able to watch it without audio and it should still be like engaging, capture their attention. Cool.

Logan Shinholser
Love it. Design the last piece. So this is the last visual. Like with my little brother, he owns a pond company here in Charlotte. And for the longest time I was like, dude, you gotta get into design. Like you basically, if you like listen back to the past episode or two, we talk about like the person, the elephant and the path. And I was like, tj, with you doing a design for somebody, you’re basically shaping the path so they can see where they’re going. And he wouldn’t do it. He was telling me, because he finally did it one time and that person immediately bought, I think it was like the biggest project to date at that point.

Logan Shinholser
And he was like, you know, it’s funny that last summer I was trying to get somebody to move forward with like, what would have been the biggest project for them. And twice the homeowner was like, I just can’t see it. Like, I can’t see what you’re seeing. And he tried like doing like the AI tool on Canva and like all this stuff and it just wasn’t working.

Aaron
Yeah.

Logan Shinholser
And instead of just saying, all right, screw it, I’m just going to figure out how to do like design. He did it on this project. And the person said, oh, I see exactly what it is, I’m in. And that was like a whole thing. So like the design component of this stuff, the visual associated with it, I mean, in our sales process we talk about, hey, what visuals are impactful in somebody’s decision making process. And it’s not just like photos or videos. It’s also like, oh, when they see that we do this, you know, walkthrough with chief architect, they can actually like feel like they’re in the space that draws a whole other level of like, emotion of like, wow, I feel like I’m actually there.

Aaron
Yeah, I mean, that’s. So that’s the next step. So you have photos. That’s the easiest leg in. Then videos give you more emotion and more feeling of what that space would be like. Then the designs make it okay. Now I’m not just talking about theoretical somebody else’s space and putting pieces of it together in my head. Now it’s my space that I’m getting to see. So then you’re going through that last iteration of until the project’s complete. This is as close as you can get to imagining what it’s going to be like to be in their own space.

Logan Shinholser
Yeah. And I would say, like, when we’re doing our bathroom, like, my wife went out and got the, you know, we have the design. I mean, I still have them here in the office, but like, she. Everybody that walked in the door, she was like, oh, have you seen our design for our bathroom yet? Like, let me go get it. And she would like. And it’s like on large paper. So it was like this whole like the showmanship side of things. Like, it wasn’t like, you know, each. Each page on this, I don’t know, nine by 16, I think is what the size of the paper is its own photo. You could have, you know, for a project of, you know, like the paper that size, you could have put like five or six photos on it on each one.

Logan Shinholser
But each one was large and it was like very. It’s like hyper realistic and it’s just like a 2D render. But, like, it looks good where they actually have the furniture that we have now in our nursery in that room. So, like, it was so easy for us to see and go, that’s exactly what we want. And I asked my wife, I was like, would you move forward with like a project in the future without design? And she was like, no way. Like, how would I know the peace.

Aaron
Of mind of saying, okay, well, I like in theory, all these selections, but I don’t if. Until I see them together. Well, I know, like, oh, is that too much? Is that going too far? Do they actually fit together? That kind of stuff. Yeah.

Logan Shinholser
And a lot of this is like kind of back to that idea of like, what doesn’t align with the story, with the video when it comes to design. Because you sometimes have like these floor plans that will show like a before and after when we’re trying to show them visually online. The issue is that if we’re just updating the kitchen, well, the floor plans are for the entire house. So there’s so much extra stuff that if you’re trying to show the before and after of how we like, you know, reconfigured or knocked down walls or things like that. But you still have. That’s like a third of the house. Like the left third is the kitchen, the right two thirds is the family room and two bedrooms and a bathroom, like, that is not part of the project.

Logan Shinholser
So, like, remove that and just focus on the elements that like, you’re actually working on. So it’s a little bit larger and it’s less chaotic feeling. So, like, that’s a big piece of, like, when you have these designs and you’re going through, like, mood boards and floor plans and, like, the renderings and, like, you know, if you’re actually doing, like, you know, walkthroughs and, like, you know, stuff like that, just making sure, again, it is a show through and through.

Logan Shinholser
And, like, I know there’s, like, there’s a company that we actually just met out at Kyle Hunt’s conference that they will do design for you if so if you need, like, a higher level of design or, you know, I’d imagine, you know, and we’ve talked about this before, of, like, taking something that’s like an 80% of the way they’re designed, where it doesn’t actually have finishes or, like, colors on the actual design, you know, itself to then add that in. I mean, that’s like that extra level of, like, shaping the path for someone that it makes it so much more real that it’s hard. Harder for the homeowner to say no.

Logan Shinholser
And it really is just like, that extra little step to, like, take it to the next level to get them, like, really bought in, because they can actually see what they’re getting versus, okay, it’s pretty close. They have to then visualize and try to guess what it is versus, like, hey, we just took it to the nth degree. Check this thing out. And it’s, like, visually stunning. That’s what you want.

Aaron
Yeah, because as they’re getting closer and closer to the sale, you want them to feel more and more assured of what this thing is. So it’s like that same question that we’ve been asking for photos and videos, that same purpose of helping them picture themselves in that space, taking that and applying it to your design as well. Like, there are some things that are helpful for you as you’re building it and some technical details that you need that the homeowner doesn’t need. And especially if it’s going to take away from their experience and confuse them more and have them thinking more about the how than the end product that might actually be hurting them for, because then they’re thinking about the technical limitations to what their dream is.

Logan Shinholser
Yeah, yeah. That’s basically it on design that it’s such a big component. But there’s not much that, like, I would say we are, like, qualified to speak on. This is exactly how it needs to be. But I will say, the closer that you can get it to making it feel realistic where somebody can envision themselves in the space very similar to photos and videos. That’s your best bet.

Aaron
Yeah. And I think then the last thing on that I have from my perspective is just if you can get it 90% of the way there and you’re at a space where you can’t do a full design render, you don’t have the software, the tools, you need something for the sale. Right now, there’s a lot you can do on ChatGPT and other AI softwares where you can put in the exact material selections you put in. Here’s the photo of this material. This material, this material. Here’s the design render and work with it to create a realistic rendering. I’ve seen people, I think I talked about this on another podcast, but people were taking their chief architect renderings and then putting them in the chatgpt and telling it to make it ultra realistic. And it’s crazy, insane.

Aaron
Like, you’ll have to do it with an asterisk of like, here’s the design rendering, here’s what ChatGPT made. So people see like, okay, there’s some things that may not make sense or whatever, but having that, at the very least, that can be like a nice in between for you to get that visual across for your clients.

Logan Shinholser
Nice. Love it. So that’s media. We’re a website company that’s like what we’re known as website SEO.

Aaron
But.

Logan Shinholser
But I tell people, like, look, like at this point, if you have to figure out, do I build the website with bad photos or stock photos versus do I go out and get photos? The media is going to win all day long. So that it is so important to really make sure that you’re building it into your process. Because, like, the thing that sucks is when I hop on the phone with somebody and they’re like, oh, last year we did this crazy great project that would have been a great one to show off. And it’s like, but you missed it.

Aaron
Yeah.

Logan Shinholser
You know, you can always go back out and like, call them up. And if you have a good relationship with that client, like, you can definitely do it. But, like, it’s so much easier before they move back into, like, we’re just gonna get this thing staged. We’re gonna make this thing happen, and it’s game on from there.

Aaron
Yeah. Yeah. So next week we’re talking about how to take all this media and actually use it.

Logan Shinholser
Yep, 100%. So hopefully that’s helpful. Go out, find somebody, look at good media. It is worth its weight in gold.

Aaron
Yeah.

Logan Shinholser
See you guys.

Aaron
See you.