How Contractors Can Identify Their ICA (ft. Ian Miclean)

Logan Shinholser
Everyone, welcome back to the Contractor Growth Network podcast. I’m Logan Shinholser and today I have back on the pod, I have our marketing director, Ian Miclean. Ian, how’s it feel back?

Ian Miclean
Yeah, feels good. The first one went well. I think this should go just as well.

Logan Shinholser
Okay, fingers crossed. So today what we’re talking about is something that I know when I first started on this whole marketing journey 10 years ago, we talked about this thing called the ideal client avatar. And essentially it was talk to me about like, hey, who do you want to go after from a client? Like, where do they shop? And I was like, well, I guess they shop at Costco. And they’re like, okay, great, write that down. So I like wrote down they shop at Costco. And then, you know, we did that more of like, what do they value? I’m like, they like family. Like, great, write that down. But then there wasn’t really any sort of follow up of what do we do with it? Does it even matter if they like Costco or any of that stuff?

Logan Shinholser
So it was kind of a thing for me to think about, but then not really like, what do we do with it? And that’s what essentially today is all about, is identifying who your ideal client actually is and talking through the steps of what that looks like and then some of the application around what that could be. So that’s why we have Ian back. So, Ian, walk through what is an ideal client avatar?

Ian Miclean
Yeah, an ideal client avatar is basically like an abstract representation of your ideal consumer, right? So it’s going to be a set of characteristics. Some of those are going to be sort of behaviors like you talk about, like that they shop at Costco. Some of it’s going to be, right, demographic stuff, so their age or their gender or where they live. Sometimes it can be income range, it can be all manner of things. But the goal is what you’re trying to do is build a picture of the kind of person that you want to work with that is your ideal consumer.

Logan Shinholser
Why?

Ian Miclean
It’s kind of the foundation of your marketing, right? If you don’t understand who your business serves, it’s going to be very difficult to speak to that person. It’s the same principle, like if you’ve ever done any sort of public speaking or a class like that, they’ll tell you, right, Know your audience, right? And so one subject matter might land well with a particular group of people, but it may not land well with another. As a business owner, you need to Understand who it is that buys from you so that you can correctly both target and speak to that person’s values and needs. Right? So the foundation of any marketing message is understanding who am I speaking to. Right? Because if you can’t, if you don’t know that, it’s going to be really difficult to craft a message that’s compelling for those people.

Logan Shinholser
So to me, like this is, it’s easier in my mind to think about it in the framework of sales versus marketing, because in sales it’s. Let’s say I’m a pool builder, right? And somebody calls me up and they live in a double wide trailer and they’re like, I want a pool in my backyard. I’m going to go out there and probably, you know, let’s say I don’t ask them all these questions, but if I’m going to pitch them on a pool, it’s probably not going to be the Taj Mahal pool versus somebody that lives in a $10 million house that they say the same thing. I’m not going to go in there and go, you should have an above ground pool that has all these floaties in it. So sure.

Ian Miclean
I mean, that’s like the direct one to one representation. Like, I talk marketing, I’m the director of marketing, it’s what I do, right? But understanding who your consumer is applies across the board from a business perspective. And 100%, it’s, it’s something that’s easier to know when you’re in a one one conversation. The great thing about going to visit somebody, like you go to that trailer or whatever, and you see their situation, you immediately gain information about who they are and what kind of product they might want, right? So that’s something you’re kind of doing intuitively interpersonal communication is you’re assessing who the other individual is. And if you’re in a sales environment, right, you’re using that information that you’re gathering about them from the conversation, from what you see, from what you hear, to sort of shape what you’re gonna offer that person, right?

Ian Miclean
So like you say, you’re not gonna offer the Taj Mahal pool to a person living in a trailer. But the reason you’re doing that is because you’ve gained sort of an understanding of who that person is. And you’re like, yeah, they could probably maybe do an above ground, right. Whereas the person at the high end home, they’re going to maybe be able to afford and want something different. So again, it’s the same principle essentially, all you’re doing when you’re building an ideal client avatar is instead of building it off of that one interaction that you’re having, you’re taking into account a group of people, right? And so you’re finding shared characteristics between. Right. 50, 60, 70, ultimately, ideally much more than that. But start small if you don’t have anything. And.

Ian Miclean
And distilling those characteristics into like, a generalized representation of the kind of person that would buy your product.

Logan Shinholser
Now, on the. The ideal client avatar side, like, I just, I had a meeting this morning on part of this business organization called eo, and they talked about, like, to be part of it, you have to be the owner of a business that’s a million dollars in revenue or up.

Ian Miclean
Sure.

Logan Shinholser
And they talked about, look, there’s people in EO that are at a million dollars a year and just barely making it. And there’s people in, like, the. I don’t think anybody in Charlotte, when Charlotte, they get people that are over $100 million and they’re like, how do we capture all of that from a marketing perspective? And I was like, I mean, to be honest, like, what. What appeals to somebody who’s at $100 million that has a team of, you know, 5,000 people is a very different message than somebody that they’re a million dollars and they’ve got a team of 10. Like. And I was like, you can’t, you know, you got to kind of pick the sweet spot in the middle ground here.

Logan Shinholser
So is that, I mean, can you talk more about that from a marketing perspective of, like, is it meant to, like, isolate out the wrong people or what?

Ian Miclean
To an extent, right. It comes down to, like, who do you want to serve to a certain. Like, for, like eo, for instance, they could, if they wanted to, right. Have a million to 10 million group and a 10 million to 50 million group and a 50 million up group. That would probably be a much better way of sort of structuring individual product components because you know for sure that the people right. Within those ranges are probably going to have more in common, right? The people just breaking a million. You’re right. They have very little in common with the people that are 100 million plus. Right. But the people from 50 million, 100 million, they probably have some more in common. More shared struggles or problems or values. So there’s no real perfect way. Like, it’s up to you, right?

Ian Miclean
Like, if you want to service all of those people, great. Break them out into chunks where you think this group of people has a lot in Common and develop a product that’s going to fit well for that group of people, right? Solve the problems of the barely breaking a million group and offer it to the barely breaking a million group. Solve the problems of the 10 million to 50 million people, offer it to those people. Same thing with 100 million and up, right? In your own business it’s the same thing. Like if you’re a pool guy, you don’t have to say I don’t want to work with the people in trailer park. You can, right? But that really, that’s a matter of choice, right?

Ian Miclean
Like you are, if you’re able to serve those people and you want to serve those people, you still want to build a representation of who they are to craft the message and the process product for that market segment, right? So it’s, it is, right? If you’re saying like, hey, you know what, like I don’t want to do too much business because I want to, I don’t want to be like overloaded with work. I only really want to do this one particular kind of pool. Then the thing that you want to do is figure out, okay, what segment of the market, right, likes this component of the product. And then it can be something that used to filter out, right?

Ian Miclean
And you say okay in eos instance, like let’s say they don’t want to deal with the one to fives or one to tension and they don’t really want to deal with the 100 millions plus because they don’t feel like their product is a great fit. What you would do is say okay, we speak directly to the 10 to 50s, right? And figure out what those people have in common and create your messaging and your product around them, right? So it can be a filtration tool, but it doesn’t have to be. And you don’t have to have just one, right? If you have like a middle of the line product, a top of the line product and a lower end product, you can have a different ideal client avatar for each of those market segments. Different product, different messaging.

Logan Shinholser
So what comes first? Like is it you identify who you want to work with from a, you know, business perspective and then you develop the product for that or do you go, well I got a product, it’s an above ground pool. Who is this going to be right for?

Ian Miclean
I mean fundamentally with marketing, you fill a need, you don’t create one, right? So you do have to start to a certain extent of is there demand for the thing I want to do, right? So if you’re selling, I Don’t know, like Russian nesting dolls, right? And you’re selling it in, I don’t know, Kansas. And there’s not like a great market, like doesn’t matter how much imagining you do of who that person would be, you’re going to have a hard time selling that product to a market that isn’t interested in it. So your foundational starting point does have to be, are there people that are willing to buy this? Once you know that, then they kind of go hand in hand, right? Because the likelihood is if there’s demand for pools as a general, there’s going to be a spectrum, right?

Ian Miclean
There’s going to be people that can afford the above ground and there’s going to be people that can afford the built in, concrete lined, you know, whole thing, right? Then it becomes a matter of choice, right? And so yes, you do have to start first with does the market want what I have to offer? But once you’ve answered that question, you look at, okay, given the fact that there are people that want this, which group of them am I most interested in serving? And then you can sort of build your avatar from there.

Logan Shinholser
So let’s talk about how do you do that? Like, how do you actually identify your ideal client avatar or that group that you want to start to work with?

Ian Miclean
Yeah, if you’ve started a business already and you’re already selling product, it’s pretty easy, right? What you’re going to do is you’re going to look at the people that you’ve already worked with and you’re going to say to yourself, okay, which of these people did I enjoy working with most? Which of these people bought the product that I most like to sell?

Logan Shinholser
Right?

Ian Miclean
If you’re really looking to niche down, you’re saying, I only want to work with the high end pool people. Look at that group of people, what do they have in common, right? Where do they live? What were your inner interactions with them were like, what kind of product did they buy? What additional features did they add to it? And that’s a really good starting point in sort of identifying, okay, this is generally speaking the kind of people that seem to be buying the product I want to sell. And then from there the best thing that you can do is go and talk to those people, right? Like you’ve sold them a product, you have a good reason to follow up with them. You have a good reason to engage with them and make sure that they’re satisfied.

Ian Miclean
Talk to them, say like, hey, what’d you like most about the service? Right? What are you liking most about the pool? Are you likely to reconvert or. Don’t say that, but say, would you. Would you buy something from us again in the future? Right? And just get on the phone with them and chat, right? You can. Like, there are scripts that you can go through to ask more probing questions that may give you more insight. But just as a casual starting point, the best thing that you can do is say, which of my past customers do I think represent the kind of work that I’d like to do? And then call those people up, have a conversation and get to know them, get to know who they are.

Ian Miclean
And you do that a couple times, talk with 5, 10, 15 people, and you’re going to have a better representation in your mind at least of like, oh, okay, these people have these things in common, right? This is what they valued about the service. They liked the communication, they liked the efficiency of our production. They liked how clean it was, whatever, right? Like, they’ll have things and there will be things that they say that will show up as commonalities, right? You talk to enough people and certain things will sort of bubble up to the top. And what you’re going to do at that point is just write them down, right? Start writing out a list of the things that the people say in those. Those interviews, and then compare those lists at the end and you’ll be like, okay, right?

Ian Miclean
Like, here are the five things that people said across the board that bought that product. And all of a sudden you now have at least a good representation from the mouth of your consumer of, oh, these are the things that they actually care about. The kind of consumer that I want to work with care about these things. And that’s. That’s truly, in its most simple form, really what you’re looking to do with an ica.

Logan Shinholser
I remember I did this, like, five years ago with a client of ours, and I just sat down with him and just said, hey, I got like a dozen questions. Like, you have been working with us for a couple years now. Like, I really enjoy the relationship that we have. Like, it’s working really well. Can I interview you? And he was like, sure. And we just went through it. And these were like, tough questions. It was like, hey, what keeps you up at night as a business owner? And he was like, oh, that’s a. That’s a tough one. I guess, now that I think about it’s this, this and this. But that, like, helped, you know, to me, like, not all those questions, like, went into, like, the marketing and flipped it around. But it was like helpful for me.

Logan Shinholser
Even from like just a empathy standpoint of like, okay, I’ve been in business now for two years. You’ve been in business for 25 years. Like if I’m trying to go after other people like you because like I know like the way that when I started this whole thing and you know, doing it for my dad’s company, my dad was probably 58, he was on his way out of the business. So like I was so used to just working with him and even the way that I would report information to him and ask him questions.

Ian Miclean
Sure.

Logan Shinholser
Somebody who’s about to sell the business and retire at the age of 58 is very different than me talking to somebody who is 35.

Ian Miclean
Sure.

Logan Shinholser
They’re in year two of the business. They’re scared shitless because they still don’t know if they’re going to make any money. Versus with him, he’s like, I’m just trying to maximize the last little bit that I got to be able to like get the most ROI from the sale. So it was helpful for me to like sit down with somebody else and actually talk through a lot of these things to understand if I want to attract more of these people. Like I got to essentially like be in the mind of how they think on a day to day basis. And I think that’s like, at least for me, you know, one of the best things was obviously growing up having a dad that’s a contractor.

Logan Shinholser
But then like being associated with the contractor fight and doing hundreds of role plays with all these contractors in like the first year and a half of owning a business was like, oh, now I understand like how they think and what their concerns are and like what are the actual marketing questions. So it was super helpful for me. And it sounds like that’s essentially what you’re asking or telling people to do here.

Ian Miclean
Yeah, yeah. I mean that really, truly is it. The more people you can talk to, the better, right? So if you talk to one person, you’re going to get a good representation of that one person. You talk to 50 people and again those commonalities are going to become clearer and clearer. The more data that you have involved in this, the better your picture of that consumer is going to be. So truth be told, like I recommend that people just have sort of a standard like follow up process. Right. Like if you’re doing client facing work and once you’ve sold them a product. Right. Schedule a time to reengage with them after they’ve had the product for a little bit and have a chat, right?

Ian Miclean
They’re, they’re gonna be either they’re gonna have good things to say, they’re gonna have bad things to say, but the truth is, even the bad is positive feedback. Right. You’re gonna get an understanding of what you’re able to write, like, successfully implement for people and what they value, and you’re going to get a sense of what things about the service did they dislike. So just think that, think about that when you’re building the project out, plan to re engage with them, tell them about it. Say, hey, you know what, in three months after this is done, like, we’re going to call you back up and I want to have a chat about your experience with us, experience with the team, experience with the product.

Logan Shinholser
So going back to like, you know, the things to ask them. I know a lot of times it’s. And I even see this with like, testimonial videos that are put together of like, hey, what did you like about working with us? And it’s like, well, I liked how you guys were like, you know, good communicators and people like, okay, great, write that down. So, like, now we know our clients like good communication, but, like, it’s not super specific, if you will.

Ian Miclean
Sure.

Logan Shinholser
And I know when we talk to clients about, like, when we’re building out their website and we’re like, you know, why does your client like, what’s going on in their house that they need to remodel their kitchen? And they’re. And the typical answer is, well, they just wanted a nicer kitchen. And it’s like, that’s not really a problem. That’s more of just like, what they wanted. So.

Ian Miclean
Sure.

Logan Shinholser
And even with, like, the best, who I would consider, like, most dialed in on the marketing side, clients that we work with, it’s still a struggle at times to talk about, like, identifying the problems that their clients are facing to be able to then, like, turn it around. So can you talk a bit more about, like, you know, asking what was the actual, like, situation you were dealing with in your home? Or like, whatever that looks like to really understand what moves the needle to drive people to actually make a, you know, or make a purchase that’s as sizable as like a kitchen remodel?

Ian Miclean
For sure.

Logan Shinholser
Yeah.

Ian Miclean
I will say it’s pretty typical of people. Like, if you do something, you tend to have this sense that it just like, it’s just implicitly good Right. Because you value it. You’re like, yeah, like, I think it’s cool and whatever. And so you don’t think too deeply about what’s motivating somebody to make that purchase. But the truth be told, there’s some type of frustration or desire at the root of pretty much any purchase that you make, right? Like, you buy, I don’t know, like a kitchen tool. Sometimes, let’s say you want a food processor. Usually you don’t just buy it because you’re like, I think it’s cool. Some people might. But typically it’s because you’re like, okay, like, I’m frustrated with chopping things. Right? And so you buy a tool that’s going to compensate for. Right.

Ian Miclean
A pain point or a frustration that you’re having when you’re buying a bigger product, something like a kitchen remodel. It’s the same thing. There’s some underlying motive, innovation that sits sort of at a foundational level that’s pushing somebody to make that choice because they’re spending a lot of money on this. Sometimes it’s aesthetics, sometimes it’s frustration with their space. Sometimes they find the space embarrassing, and they don’t like having people over. But the really only way to get to the root of that is to ask more probing questions. So when you ask that first question, you say, hey, what was it that made you choose to buy a new kitchen? They’ll probably give you a pretty surface level answer up front. They’ll be like, oh, I just kind of wanted one. Right?

Ian Miclean
And part of this, like, interview process, there’s a little bit of a skill to it, right? You need to then ask the further question of. Is like, okay, well, what was it about your old kitchen that you didn’t like?

Logan Shinholser
Right.

Ian Miclean
And that will lead them down the path of. They’ll be like, okay, well, the island was too small and I couldn’t prep on it. And the sink level, like, the height of the countertops wasn’t right. And I’m a tall person, or we like to entertain and there wasn’t room. Right. And every time they sort of give you a little bit more of answer, just ask an additional question, right? So if they say, like, yeah, it was kind of hard to entertain in, that indicates, right, that they have a value. Right? They like having people over. And so say it’s like, oh, so are you like a. A big entertainer? Do you like to have people over to your home? Right. And was that sort of like a core element in you making this decision?

Ian Miclean
And usually once you Find that sort of core motivation, and you begin asking them about it, people start to loosen up a bit, and they’ll start talking more and more in depth about their motivations behind that decision. So a big piece of it is just like, approach the conversation with curiosity, right. Don’t just go in with your list of questions and say, what motivated you? Check the box. Right. Once they’ve replied, pay attention to the people you’re. You’re talking to. And if they show a little bit of hesitation, some frustration about something, they sort of like, give you a wishy wash or wishy washer. Oh, washing answer. Dig a little deeper. Ask a second question. Beyond that, it’s really not that complicated. It’s just listen and continue to ask questions. And really, if.

Ian Miclean
If somebody’s giving you, like, a moot answer, ask a few questions. And if they keep saying, like, hey, you know what? There’s no deeper level motivation, fine, move on to the next question. But you’re not going to hurt yourself by just asking that secondary question and trying to push a little bit deeper into that issue.

Logan Shinholser
Yeah. When I’ve done this with clients and then clients and stuff like that, it’s. It always starts off a surface level. And it’s funny, like, whenever I’ll ask, like, hey, why did somebody, like, remodel their kitchen? Like. Or like, why do they reach out to you to remodel their kitchen? Like, the answer is always like, well, they like that I had good reviews, and they like that I had this. And I’m like, what about the fact that there are other. Their old kitchen was just bad. And that’s like, the. The natural thing that I found is, like, people instantly go right back to the reason that somebody is hiring you to remodel their kitchen is because you’re great at communication. But in reality, that’s a secondary thing. All they care about is, like, you could be the nicest person in the.

Ian Miclean
World, but, like, if you’re building an ugly kitchen, it doesn’t matter.

Logan Shinholser
Yeah. Or if their kitchen is beautiful, like, it doesn’t matter. So it’s like there’s, like, elements of that of, like, focusing on, like, what actually matters here. Yeah. Because, you know, I remember, like, watching Aaron when Aaron, who’s one of our videographers, was like, first interviewing, like, clients, like, homeowners, about, hey, like, what was wrong with the old kitchen? And they’re just like, it was kind of outdated. And when you first do it, he’s like, okay, cool, Outdated. I got my answer. Next question. And then now it’s been a couple years. And he’s like, okay, well what do you mean by outdated? And they start to describe it. He’s like, okay, well, like, I mean, this is a pretty sizable project that we just did. Like, surely there’s more than just. It’s a little bit like ugly.

Logan Shinholser
Like you just spent a bunch of money and I had strangers in your home for three months and they’re like, well, you know, actually we have Thanksgiving coming up. And then it starts to kind of spew. And it’s the same thing as like, if you’ve gone through like sales training or any of that stuff. Like, it’s very similar things. But then the issue is a lot of people, I find is they learn this in sales training and they like know how to dig deep into it, but they turn around in the marketing is like, Dave, if you want a kitchen, we are the best kitchen people out there in the world.

Ian Miclean
Except the most surface level.

Logan Shinholser
Yeah. And it’s just such a big disconnect. And I remember like a year ago I was on a sales call with somebody and he was just like, yeah, I’m just not getting enough leads. And I was like, okay, well tell me about like, what’s your sales process? And he walked me, he had a whole pitch book and it was great.

Ian Miclean
Sure.

Logan Shinholser
And he was like, slide number three is the slide that as soon as I show it, everybody moves forward. And I’m like, okay, where can I see something similar to slide 3 on the website? And he was like, oh, I guess that’s a good question. So it was. Sure, it was very fast, but it was essentially the problem slide that he brought up that was like, this is the actual thing that we solve and why you’re probably feeling this way. The website had nothing to do with that whatsoever.

Ian Miclean
Sure. And a lot of people don’t realize that the same. The principles behind marketing and the principles behind sales are very similar. Right. Ultimately, what you’re trying to do is dig down to what is it that the person I’m talking to needs. And truly marketing is a conversation. Right. It’s not happening one to one. But part of why you’re trying to create this abstract representation of who your consumer is so that you can craft a message, like added and send it at a distance, like without that need for like one to one interfacing that’s still going to speak to their problems. Right. So it’s. We do market research at cgn. We’ve done it for a couple clients now where we essentially will speak to our consumers. Consumers, right.

Ian Miclean
As a, an effort to get a better picture of who that person is, what their values are, so that we can then turn around and reflect those values back on the website in other marketing materials that we produce for them.

Logan Shinholser
What’s the reason? I mean, because, like, I see us doing it. It’s a pain, like truth. It is a big lift. And there’s no. It’s all manual, there’s no chat GBT to get perfect responses. So it’s a big lift on our part. It’s a big lift for, you know, the grand clients is what we call them, like the homeowners. So like, what is the actual benefit there of like, getting their words?

Ian Miclean
It just makes the whole, like everything that follows becomes easier. Right? So it is a, it’s a big lift up front. But we go through this whole process of building out the client avatar. We go through all these interviews, we sort of distill down what they care about, what they liked most about the service, even where there are like, weak points, right. And we’ll relay those back to the business. But what it allows us to do is then I get to pass off a briefing to our copywriters, to our website team, to our SEO team, to our ads team, and all of a sudden they have things that they know they need to address, right?

Ian Miclean
So in the same sense that, like if you’re in that one one conversation and the person says, like, hey, you know, I got this frustration, you’d speak to them about it in that moment, right? If you don’t start off with a understanding of what issues you need to address or what things you need to highlight from your marketing, you’re just going to be guessing, right? You’re going to be saying, oh, we build cool pools, right? Which again, it may be true, but that doesn’t mean that you are speaking to the consumer on the other side of that website interface, right? So we think it’s important, and we know it’s important because what ends up happening is that our copywriters have a significantly easier time writing compelling copy and it converts at a higher rate. Right?

Ian Miclean
So it is a lot of labor, but it’s working slower and more in depth up front so that everything else flows more smoothly.

Logan Shinholser
So we talked about, like, the problems and stuff like that. Let’s go through like the actual, like, demographics, like where they live, like the lifestyle, like how important is like, you know, going out, like creating this avatar, if you will. That’s not, oh, they’re anywhere from 18 to 85 all I care about is they have money. So like. Yeah, can you speak to like the idea of like the location of where they are.

Ian Miclean
Like that’s a little bit more tactical. I mean that piece of it really comes down to, right? Like the way that you are targeting people in your marketing. So any marketing that you do, even just written words, you’re going to be doing targeting in it, right? So if you name a website page, you give it a title, right? Typically you want to include location information because that communicates to a person on again, on the other side of that website that this is for me, right? If you don’t know where your consumers live, then you’re just creating generic information, right? People want to get like find a resource that is going to be specific to their solution. They don’t want to find the most generic option out there. They want to find something that’s localized in their community that is designed for them, right?

Ian Miclean
So this, that’s like the most sort of surface level. That way that you would use it is inside of copy. But even at a further level that applies directly to the way that you target your ads, right? So if you’ve run any sort of paid advertising, you know, there’s all sorts of toggles and so wishes that you can sort of flip on and off for age, for interest, for location, for right. Income ranges, for all of that sort of stuff. These platforms aggregate that information about people and they let you sort of say these are the kind of people that I want to see my ads. Right?

Ian Miclean
So if you’re collecting that information in sort of a first party format and you’re not just guessing at it, you’re going to be able to say or like I know for sure that like these seven neighborhoods are the ones where the people that typically buy my product are. I know that generally speaking they have this income range, that they have these kind of values and interests. And then when you turn back to go and target your ads, right, Instead of an ad campaign, you’re able to say, okay, right here are all the things that I need you to look for in the type of people that you’re going to show my ads to.

Logan Shinholser
Because I know like one of the slides that when I present on just, you know, this whole topic and the geographical locations is like when it comes to the ads, like a lot of people like to spread their budget across the whole city that they’re in and they’ve got a lower, you know, and that works really well. If you have an unlimited budget, the same Way that I was like talking today about, like, hey, if we want to target the million dollar businesses and the, you know, 100 million dollar businesses, we can do all that. We’re just gonna build, spend a lot. Yeah, we’re at the like have individualized campaigns around like all that kind of stuff. So it really makes a big difference of like understanding like who’s your big priority? Like just like Mercedes did.

Logan Shinholser
They’re all their ads, if you look at them, they’re typically going to have people that are age 40 to 60, if you will. It’s not that an 18 year old or an 80 year old is not allowed to buy their product, it’s just that 80% of people kind of fall into that 40 to 60 range. So why show somebody completely off base there when in reality it’s, you know, you’re not going to geographically, you’re not going to show, you know, the ads for, I don’t know, like a boathouse building company in the middle of North Dakota.

Ian Miclean
Sure.

Logan Shinholser
So it’s just like identifying that stuff. So when it comes to, let’s say like the geographical locations and those sorts of things, how granular are we supposed to get? Like should it be people, hey everybody on this one street, like I want to go after that or I don’t.

Ian Miclean
Know if I would go that specific. Generally speaking, a lot of what you’re looking for in geographic targeting is going to be sort of income based information, right? So you all know like in the towns you live, there’s the rich neighborhoods, there’s the not so rich neighborhoods, right. And if your product is more expensive, you probably don’t want to be running ads into the neighborhood that’s not going to be able to afford the product. Right. So generally speaking, I think zip codes are pretty effective. Right. But even just a sense of like if you have like a group of houses that you know are clustered together, you’re like, okay, like I need to be in this general area. It’s never going to be like a perfect representation because of course there may be people that have money that don’t live in those areas.

Ian Miclean
But the more that you understand who your consumer is, the easier it is going to be to deliver an ad directly to them. Right. So no, you don’t need to be like, this is the street that I want to target. Most ad platforms are not even going to let you do that. But you do need to know, okay, like they’re going to live in this part of town. Right. And then you can drop a pin, you can sort of set area ranges around that. It makes it a lot easier to sort of be specific about who you’re speaking to. So not street, but zip codes at the very least.

Logan Shinholser
So I know I just did, like, a workshop for a dozen remodeling companies, and we spent a lot of time. I mean, it was like a two and a half hour workshop, and we spent pretty much 50% of it on this ideal client avatar. Then 50% was on, like, unique selling proposition, which would be the next podcast that we go through. But one of the things that I went through on the ideal client avatar was, you know, hey, pick. Pick your favorite person you ever worked with just to make it easy. Like, we’re talking, like, in general pools of people, but we’re saying pick one, and we reverse engineered all the demographic area, like, all that kind of stuff.

Logan Shinholser
But then one of the things we also did was, hey, think about, like, essentially the five stages of a remodel project, which is like, stage one is like, they’re just the lead. Stage two is they go through design phase. Stage three is you start work, Stage four is like, you finish work. And stage five is like the post work. And one of the things that went through is like, highlighting the bright spots was like, okay, during the design phase, think about all the specific things that the client liked. Like, what did they specifically say that they really enjoyed about working with you during that phase, or what wowed them and stuff like that. And like, one guy was like, well, actually, we just. We just started doing 3D renderings on all of our designs and this, like, blew them away.

Logan Shinholser
And I was like, okay, perfect man, where on your website right now do you show that you can do a 3D rendering? And then it shows the actual after product as well? And he was like, oh, yeah, I guess that makes a lot of sense. So a lot of this stuff is like, I know we’re like, with the ICA stuff, it’s sometimes you speak in, like, general principles, but it’s really as simple as just pick your favorite person and actually just reverse engineer that exact thing and figure out what the bright spots are. And at least you’re like 80% of the way there to a certain extent.

Ian Miclean
Yeah, I mean, it’s like a phenomenal, like, starting point at the very least. Ideally, you’re doing that with more than one person, but if you don’t have anything, do it with somebody for sure. Right? Like, it’s going to get you way, way closer than you were to begin with. And truly, like, you say that exercise of just thinking about, like, what things did they say they liked? Right. Is going to give you a lot of information. Just sitting down and processing it. Even if you’re not talking to people, you remember a lot of stuff. You remember the conversations you had. You’ll probably have emails or phone calls or whatever, or voicemails that give you that information too.

Ian Miclean
So it doesn’t have to be as broad scope as like, hey, we’re going to get a group of 20 people and I’m going to interview them over the course of the next month. Right? Like, of course I think you should do that. But if you don’t have the time for that, start small, right? Start with one person and say, hey, like, what was this person’s values? Like, what did they like in the interaction? Who are they? Like, what’s their age? Where do they live? All of that. That’s going to at least give you, right, a sort of microcosm of who your ideal client is. And that’s also serves as a really good starting point. Right. So once you’ve built that framework out, then you can start looking through your sort of list of clients and say, who’s like this, right.

Ian Miclean
Who is similar to this person? And that will let you sort of compile that broader list of, okay, right now I need to go and do this for other people. I do think eventually you should get on the phone with that person, like, talk to them. There’s no reason you shouldn’t. It’s a great opportunity for you to re engage. Maybe you can sell them something else, like, it’s all upside, but 100%, like, start small, right? That’ll get you a lot of the way there.

Logan Shinholser
So let’s just say we do that exercise. We’re reverse engineering our exact one person just to start and really thinking through what was the problem they had. Why was it an issue going through the different phases, highlighting other stuff? How does that then? I know we’ve been kind of like dabbling around the topic, but how does that then manifest itself in the marketing?

Ian Miclean
Sure. Yeah. Well, we’re going to go full in depth on this on a later podcast when we talk about usps, but really it comes down to how do I mirror the values that I have sort of unearthed in this process back at my consumer. And that’s really all you’re doing in marketing is you’re figuring out what somebody wants and how that connects to your service and then telling people, hey, we do this thing. That example of the 3D renderings is a really good example, right? He had an interaction with the consumer. They’re like, wow, this is amazing. And then all you’re doing is just making sure that people are aware that’s something that you offer. Right? Because the likelihood is if that person is your ideal client, that other people like them are also going to value that same thing. Right.

Ian Miclean
So that’s really, honestly as complicated as it gets. It’s figuring out who they are, where they live, what they value and taking those values and making sure that you’re promoting that across the board. Right. So usually what you want to be doing is crafting sort of like a unified message that you’re going to sort of spread across all of your channels. But again, we’ll get into that more in depth in that USPs conversation. But it really is just a process of mirroring back values and concerns to the consumer.

Logan Shinholser
Yeah, I know with this stuff, like, we’ve had a lot of clients that say, yeah, people chose me because the website and the words that were written on the website, clients like, oh, that spoke to me. And I know like, when it’s done correctly, then somebody feels like, oh my gosh, like this person gets me. It’s a lot more trusting. Like, I know it’s kind of a side thing, but like, you know, having a nine month old is, he’s starting to get sick and stuff like that. And my wife would be like, well, Logan, have you noticed that he’s got like that red rash on his left elbow? And I’m like, no. And she’s like, well, I’m gonna look it up and lo and behold, she’ll type it in. And the first answer in Google is from Reddit.

Logan Shinholser
And it’s, my nine month old has a red rash on their left elbow. What could it be? And of course it’s like, sure.

Ian Miclean
It immediately connects.

Logan Shinholser
It is the most specific thing. It is shocking how common I guess this stuff is with babies. Because like Reddit has like, sure, anything that we have, it is to a.

Ian Miclean
T. It is like talking about, yeah.

Logan Shinholser
It is like, hey, my son’s name is great. And I’m like, damn, they really get it. So it’s super specific. But like, as soon as you read that, it’s like, instantly I’m reading every single word of the answer of everybody replying to it. Because I also want to see what you know. So it’s like, when it’s, you know, that’s obviously like a very specific case, but like Doing that. Like, I know with, like, websites, it’s like, hey, like, you’re saying that you’re going in and redoing a lot of these kitchens because the old ones are outdated. Why are they outdated? Well, back in the 90s, there was a huge, you know, track home builder that came through and it’s like, well, perfect. Put that on the website of like, hey, is your house outdated because it was actually built?

Ian Miclean
House built?

Logan Shinholser
Yeah, because, you know, there’s a ton of people, right? Because then it shows, like, authority. Like, oh, this person probably knows their way around their kitchen already. You know, it’s. It’s just saying, I know you have a need for sure. That’s all it is. You know, it’s proactively doing it.

Ian Miclean
I know.

Logan Shinholser
That was like my biggest gripe with like, some of the sales stuff where it’s like, people. Don’t people use, like, good sales tactics of like, well, you’re more expensive than somebody else. Why is that? And the tactic is like, well, why are they cheaper? That doesn’t really work in marketing. Versus, like, hey, like, well, these are the reasons why. And to the right person, it’ll makes sense. And like, cool. Like, I’m. That actually makes sense that I’d rather spend more money with you that way. But, like, that’s what marketing has to do proactively is like, set the value and speak specifically to the person up front versus hoping that it’s just like, hey, I can do a really good kitchen. Just call me. And then I can tailor my sales call to your specific situation versus proactively going, hey, you’re probably in this situation.

Logan Shinholser
This is how I can solve it. And if that’s the case, then that person is way more likely to reach out and go, hey, you hit the nail on the head. Let’s talk for sure.

Ian Miclean
I mean, and even if, like, you say in a sales conversation, they’d compare themselves to somebody that is like, why are they cheaper? Right. A way better response to that question would be like, well, right. Like, we actually make sure that we clean up every day and we’re very respectful of your home and on time. And if you especially, like, if you know that’s something that person values. Right. You basically got a canned answer. Do. Building an ICA is kind of a little bit like cheating, because you’re getting into the mind of the person that you’re talking to before you’re having that conversation. And so you’re already able. It’s like you went and did a bunch of research on them. It’s like, okay, what do they value in their day to day life? What’s going to cause them frustration?

Ian Miclean
What’s going to cause them concerns? What are they going to make? What’s going to make them feel very valued? And then you’re just saying those things to them. Right. And it’s like, again, it’s, that makes it sound a little nefarious, but that’s the truth. That’s what you’re trying to do is you’re trying to say, okay, right, here are the things that they value. And then I am making sure that I am expressing the fact that those are things that I do. Right. It’s, it’s small adjustments, right? Little things. Again, like that track house example that give people this sense of confidence, like, oh, they’re going to be able to deal well with my problems. Right. Even that, that track house thing that gives you confidence that they do work in your area. Right. It has like multiple layers.

Ian Miclean
Yes, they’re specifically addressing your problem, but it also represents. Oh, right. They have extensive experience remodeling this type of kitchen and they probably have extensive experience remodeling kitchens in my area. Right. There’s many layers to being able to communicate, like in communicating that give a person confidence that you’re the right fit.

Logan Shinholser
So in summary of all this, the ICA is really all about getting in the mind of your, a client that you would like to replicate to understand. It’s just like building empathy for them of understanding what they’re dealing with, why they’re dealing with it, what they’re looking for, all that kind of stuff. And the easiest way to do it is just to pick your top client right now. And I know I talk to people. I’m like, if you don’t know who that is, just look in QuickBooks, like whoever spent the most amount of money with you, start there. If that’s something you would love to repeat because you like the product and you like how it all went, do that. But if they were a jerk and you want to go to number two, that’s fine too.

Logan Shinholser
But like, you know, I, I know there’s also like this fear of, well, right now I’m working with, let’s say I’m working on homes that are on average a half a million bucks each and I want to move up to the $2 million and up homes. If I start to use that in the marketing, is that going to segment out the wrong people? Like, am I going too fast? And I know like a lot of this stuff, like when it comes like identifying the ideal client avatar, you don’t have to necessarily go, you know what, I’m only working with $2 million and up. Anybody with 500k or below, you’re out. Don’t even bother talking to me. Like, it’s a very harsh way. So like we’re not that same workshop.

Logan Shinholser
Somebody was asking about that question of like, I don’t want to just totally isolate other people out. And it’s like, well, you can step your way up and you just little by little start to make these adjustments and you don’t immediately go from, you know, having a really nice double wide on your website to, you know, the Taj Mahal haul. As far as you, what you offer, you can step this thing up and make it happen from there for sure.

Ian Miclean
And that’s mentioned is like the things that higher end clients value. Right. Your lower end clients might not know that they value that, but I guarantee you they will appreciate many of the same things. So you’re not going to ice people out by making it clear that you are good at what you do. Right. You’re, if anything, you’re going to make it more likely that all sorts of people are going to apply, right. And reach out to you. Yes, you’re going to speak more directly to a particular niche, but that doesn’t mean that you’re going to be excluding, right. An entire category of people by clearly indicating that you’re a high end product offer.

Logan Shinholser
Cool. All right, next episode is going to be all about ideas identifying the unique selling proposition, which this is honestly kind of the warm up to it. This is the easier version of it. The USP is even harder. But sure, we’ll dive deeper on the usp.

Ian Miclean
Cool, cool.

Logan Shinholser
Thank you so much for joining us this week on the Contractor Growth Network podcast. This episode of the Contractor Growth Network was hosted by Logan Shinholser and produced by Dane Appleyard and Logan Shinholser. Today’s guest was Ian Miclean. We look forward to seeing you next time when we talk about establishing your USP with Ian Miclean.