Chris Voss Reveals His Negotiation Secrets (ft. Chris Voss)

Logan Shinholser
Hey everyone, welcome back to Contractor Growth Network. I’m Logan Shinholser and today we have an awesome guest. I have read his book three times. It is the famous Chris Voss. If you don’t know who he is, Chris is a master of high stakes negotiation. Formerly an FBI hostage negotiator, Chris’s experience includes intense scenarios like the Chase Manhattan bank robbery standoff where his skillful negotiation secured a peaceful resolution. Hes the author of the highly acclaimed book never split the difference, negotiating as if your life depended on it, which distills his negotiation expertise into essential strategies for business and life. Chris now shares his insights globally, teaching companies the art of negotiation through understanding human psychology and strategic communication. Chris will be our keynote speaker on day one of the new era of contracting virtual summit.

Logan Shinholser
Join us as we delve into the mind of the negotiator who is reshaped, how the business world approaches high stakes discussions. Let’s get into it. The first question I asked Chris was, what should your mindset be when you’re going into a negotiation?

Chris Voss
Really? Curiosity, probably. And playfulness. It gives you a couple of psychological advantages. You’re quicker on your feet, you see patterns faster. You’re actually 31% smarter in a positive frame of mind. And curiosity, genuine curiosity as kind of a superpower. I’ve seen it show up in a number of other formats as a way to get you through almost anything. Like it comes up in man’s search for meaning, as to a survival method, psychological protection method, and what was one of the most horrific experiences any human being could ever endure, which is being in a concentration camp, curiosity comes up in Taleb’s book Nassim Nicholas Taleb, antifragile and he calls curiosity a superpower, antifragile characteristic where you gain from disorder. And so curiosity is one of those things. It just removes judgment from your brain.

Chris Voss
It just helps you see things better and keeps you in a positive frame of mind. And then, as crazy as it sounds like when I’m in a playful mood, if I got a really tough negotiation, I got a lot at stake. If I’m playful, I’m smarter. And it ends up being contagious. It puts the other side in a playful mindset as well. It increases your collaboration with the other side. It allows for self effacing humor, which is great for collaboration, finding good solutions. So I would say curiosity and playfulness will put you in a position to do a great negotiation.

Logan Shinholser
And when you talk about playfulness, what do you mean exactly?

Chris Voss
Well, let me give you a couple of examples. I had a medical bill a couple of months ago that I just forgotten about, and it was about three grand or so. And sometimes a bill like that I plan on paying in full anyway. So if I’m late, I’m going to pay the thing off. And so I realized I’d let it go two months, and I’m going to call them on the phone, and I sit down at my desk that day fully intended to pay the bill in its entirety. But then I thought, you know, I’m in a pretty good mood, you know, what the heck? Let me, let me take a run at these guys. I’m not going to be a jerk on the phone.

Chris Voss
I’m not going to leave them worse than I found them by interacting with me, I’m at least going to get them to laugh. And if I pay the bill in full, then I put some positive karma in the universe and made the world a better place for all of us in that moment. So I’m in this good mood, and I’m going through the phone tree, and I finally get to, you know, if you owe us money, press this button, which means I ain’t talking to customer service. I’m talking to debt collections. And as I’m sitting there waiting and thinking, as soon as the lady picks up the phone and she says hello, not even, hi, may I help you? Any of that customer service nonsense in a really playful voice will go, I owe you money.

Chris Voss
As if I was laughing about it with her. And she goes, you know, she kind of laughs and she goes, you know, who is this? What? You know, what’s your billing number? And she finds my number, and she comes back on. She goes, oh, yes, you do. Now she’s in a playful tone of voice, and I say to her, you know, what if I pay this thing off in full right now? Like, how much of a discount can I get? This is a general rule. 10% discount is a throwaway discount. You know, you can almost always get that. I mean, it’s rare that you can at least get a 10% discount. And I figure based on how much I, how long I was going to be in the phone, how much I owed, I thought, you know, dollar 300 off this baby.

Chris Voss
I’ll take that. And I hear in the background, go say to somebody, $700. And she’s talking to somebody else. And I’m like, oh, wow, okay. You know, that’s more than double what I expected. She comes back on the phone, she goes, $700? And I go, $700 off. She goes, no, dollar. 700 to pay the whole thing off. Now I’m stunned. I mean, I’m stunned. And all I know is that I was playful with her and I was joking with her. And I whoever, whether it was man or woman, on the other end of the line, I just wanted to have a little bit of fun, and suddenly I get this great deal out of it. And so that’s kind of what I mean, you know, be playful with the other person, make fun of yourself with them.

Chris Voss
And if they can do something for you, they’ll probably do about as much as they can for you.

Logan Shinholser
There’s a lot of misconception around what negotiation really is because of what we see on tv and in movies. So I asked, Chris, what are some of the myths around negotiation?

Chris Voss
Well, you know, and the first one is, you know, be the biggest jerk in the room, be the most demanding guy, you know, be. And Donald Trump’s just an example of an assertive negotiator, and I’m a natural born assertive. I read his book the Order of the Deal way back when it first got published and enjoyed reading it and would still recommend it to this day. You know, Trump was in early days. You know, he’s dealing with contractors in New York City, and he’s kicking chairs across the room. I mean, he has got these massive displays of anger and outbursts, and hes getting his way short term.

Chris Voss
I mean, hes the loudest, most aggressive person in the room, and its a great way to get things short term and then put everybody in a position where they will no longer collaborate with you at all. They wont return your calls, they wont talk to you. A lot of people dont know the Chelsea Piers real estate development on the west side of Manhattan. Phenomenal. I mean, absolutely one of the best developments in Manhattan in the last 50 years. Trump originally owned that land. It was the west side railroad yards. And he had these great visions and dreams of putting up the world’s tallest building there and redeveloping it in a great way. But by the time he got to that development, he had kicked chairs across a room in so many rooms that nobody would deal with him.

Chris Voss
And he couldn’t get the land developed. It remained undeveloped for the longest period of time because he knew how valuable it was and couldn’t get anybody to develop it. All the community groups were aligned against him, like everybody in New York was aligned against them. And the only reason that land finally got developed was he finally sold his interest in it, and other developers came in and just made this phenomenal. Like, it’s inspiring in so many ways how good the Chelsea peers are and what it looks like. So the seduction there is when you’re angry and loud and aggressive, you can get a lot of examples of how you got your way.

Chris Voss
And people don’t really track how toxic that is long term and how ultimately, everybody in your environment gets sick of being yelled at and have chairs kicked across the room and they won’t deal with you anymore.

Logan Shinholser
One of the issues a lot of contracting company owners face is that when they are told no by a prospect, they immediately put their walls up and get defensive. Chris talks about the space between yes and no. So I asked him to expand upon what that space really means.

Chris Voss
Yeah. And I was just. I was just having a discussion last night about that very concept of. With my girlfriend, Wendy Starlin, who’s an independent business person of her own, very successful entrepreneur, model and songwriter. And she was talking to me about, you know, somebody’s gonna. She expected a really bad proposal from these people she’d done business with in the past, and it was gonna repeat, and they were probably gonna, you know, try to get her to take a big pay cut. And I said, you don’t gotta say yes or no. You’re not avoiding a question. I mean, the first phrase in a book, never split the difference, which is, how am I supposed to do that? Is neither yes nor no. You’re neither accepting, nor are you rejecting what the other side has offered.

Chris Voss
And we think when somebody makes an offer, we have to say yes or no. You don’t have to say either. But how do you not say either? If you say to somebody, how am I supposed to do that? You’ve just opened up the gap between yes and no. And there’s a lot of space there. It’s my contention that space in that gap is as big as the Grand Canyon. Because if you say, how am I supposed to do that? Now? You put the other side into a completely different thought pattern. You put them into a problem solving thought pattern collaboratively with you, whether they like it or not. It’s very deferential, you know, you could say, how am I supposed to do that? In an attacking, angry way. And again, tone of voice is critical.

Chris Voss
Your inner voice betrays your outer voice, which is another reason to remain curious. Like, how am I supposed to do that? You know, that’s a curious way to ask that question. You haven’t accepted and you haven’t rejected. Like, you’ve indicated that, look, if. If the implementation issues could be solved here, collaboratively, you know, I’d be happy to do it. I just, you know, there’s some real problems here, and it’s a shift away from out of the yes no prisoners dilemma, if you will, into let’s see if we can collaborate to make this a better deal. And if you can go with, how am I supposed to do that? And then get into a listening, collaborative mode, actually listening and showing that you’re listening, paraphrasing what they’ve said, summarizing it, you know, looking for the insights into what they’ve said.

Chris Voss
Then you find the space between yes and no is huge and probably yields a much better deal for both sides.

Logan Shinholser
Because I know a lot in, like, the contracting space, there’s a lot of options here. It’s not a one size fit all where this is the kitchen that you’re going to get and either take it or leave it. So how would that space between yes or no be related to when you’re looking at maybe like the full scope of a project, as far as the client saying, eh, I don’t think that what you presented is exactly what I want.

Chris Voss
Well, yeah, and then ideally, if they’re. If what they’ve said, let’s presume the client intentionally means that collaboratively. I mean, there’s one or two things. When somebody doesn’t like your price, they’re expressing a real problem or they’re just trying to beat you down on price, they’re testing. I mean, you know, even if when people are being collaborative, everybody’s been trained, if they think about it all, you know, at least they got to test the price. At least they got to try. I got to try to get a better price. So, you know, find out if they’re testing you, if there really is a problem, because when you say to somebody, how am I supposed to do that? Or another great way to respond to that if they’ve rejected your proposal, is the label. Seems like you got something else in mind.

Chris Voss
I seems like there’s something else here that you’re thinking about. You know, that’s a tentative probe. We call that a label. That’s an invitation to collaborate. Somebody does have something else on their mind. Find out what it is. I mean, there’s so many other things that go into it in pricing terms. When is the money going to get paid? How’s it going to get paid? I once did a roof project on a church that I was involved in New Jersey a long time ago, and a contractor said, I need x dollars upfront. And were like, okay, what do you need the upfront money for? Well, we got to go out and buy all the materials. I said, well, give me the list of materials and we’ll go buy them and get them delivered on your behalf.

Chris Voss
That way you don’t have to put any money out up front. And they were like, oh, that solves a cash flow problem for us right now because you’re asking me to put money up on a deal at the front end and not get paid to the back end. There’s a way we can collaboratively work on this. So the exploration of what’s being offered and accepted, look for the adjustments. There’s a pretty good chance that what the other side has in mind in terms of an adjustment might actually be more profitable or solve a cash flow problem for you.

Logan Shinholser
What you’re talking about there is very much finding, like, what you would consider that middle ground up to a certain extent. And I know the whole book has never split the difference. What is the difference between compromise and a high value trade?

Chris Voss
That’s a great question. I mean, compromise usually is, I’ll take some of your idea and we’ll take some of my idea and we’ll put them together, and it’s just going to water down the ideas. It compromises in so many ways. The analogy that I’ve used all the time is, you know, I’m asking my girlfriend, should I wear black shoes or brown shoes? And we compromise and I wear one black shoe and one brown shoe. I mean, compromise is usually a blending of different ideas that try to. In the moment, it gives people psychological, they feel like it might have been a psychological victory, but the loss feels bigger and then it just always, compromise always ends up being worse. One company that I was talking to, a traditional company, and sort of a new entry into the industry had entered and they merged.

Chris Voss
And it’s sort of like old school, old thinking, new thinking. And they wanted to build a new corporate headquarters that was state of the art and it would be much more efficient and it would save a lot of money in the long run. And they had this nonsensical co CEO idea. You know, the old CEO, the new CEO, and the guy from the old was like, I see how this makes sense on paper, but if we give up our old headquarters, it’s going to make us look bad. So they compromised and did both things. They wasted a massive amount of money keeping both headquarters up and running. And ultimately both CEO’s left the company in disgust because they both felt a loss and they lost money. And as it played out.

Chris Voss
It turned out operationally it was a very bad idea to put the two ideas together. So the high value trade, or is there just a better way to do it? Is it possibly that you’ve got a better idea than I do and what I’m looking for is just emotional face saving. Like your idea is actually better than mine, but it was your idea, so I don’t like it because it was yours idea. I mean, what really gets in the way there? Ideally a high value trade is just a, quote, clash, to use the f word, fair trade. To begin with. You’re trading a pair of shoes for $45. You got what you were after, and the guy that made the shoes got what they were after. They got fairly compensated, and you got a decent pair of shoes for what you needed.

Chris Voss
So how were the needs met or the two sides is what you were looking for in the first place? Did you meet the need that you were trying to fill and did you get fair? You know, I like to pay people what they ask. The funny, I think the thing about the black Swan group that would surprise a lot of people is we don’t really bargain over price. We talk a lot about terms like I’m going to. If what you’re asking me for is what you are going to charge everybody else is the value there, and am I really going to get what I paid for? Are you going to keep all the promises you make? I’ve got possible financial advisement deal that I’m involved in now that I’m probably going to reject.

Chris Voss
And among the reasons I’m going to reject it is I was told upfront it was probably going to cost me x dollars, let’s say, for example, $50,000. And I think the other side smelled the opportunity to hold me up because I wanted to have it done for the end of the calendar year. We’re recording this very end of November, like, oh, if I can get this into place before the end of the year, it’d be worth a lot to me. And the other side went, oh, well, price now $70,000. And I’m like, all right, wait a minute. Hold, hold it, hold it. You know, there’s a grabbing with both hands issue here, and so there’s no high value trade there. I’m not going to bargain with them over the price. I’m just not going to do the deal at all.

Chris Voss
So we don’t bargain on price. I’ve kind of gotten away from your question of this. You know, what’s the difference between compromise and a high value trade. In point of fact, if it’s a good deal, that’s the definition of a high value trade. You got what you were looking for and you paid a fair price for it.

Logan Shinholser
So it sounds to me like at the end of the day, the compromise is no party is happy or everybody gave up something that it’s not a ten out of ten. And the high value trade is really, client is happy, salesperson is happy, both sides are good to go. That is your high value trade.

Chris Voss
Yeah. You know, nobody got greedy. Nobody suddenly smelled the potential advantage and try to jack up the price. And that’s not to say that, you know, there’s still my method, you know, the tactical empathy method of negotiation. That’s not to say that the cutthroats and the chair kickers don’t make money. You know, it’s, regardless of what you think of Donald Trump, it’s inarguable he’s been successful. Another example, Kevin O’Leary from Shark Tank, who I’ve met in person, and everything I hear about him personally is that he’s a great guy. And my experience with him personally is that he’s a great guy and a generous guy. We both spoke at a conference. After the conference was over, he took a bunch of people to dinner. We had a wonderful dinner. He paid for everything. He didn’t have to do that. He was a generous guy.

Chris Voss
But he has said on shark Tank that good negotiation when both sides are a little unhappy, well, to me, that’s like saying a good marriage is when both sides are a little unhappy and it ain’t going to work out long run. A long term relationship of trust and collaboration is not based on both sides being a little unhappy. That isn’t to say that there aren’t the Kevin O’Leary’s of the world out there who are very successful, made a lot of money. By anybody’s definition, Kevin has been successful. And thats his take on negotiation. Thats not my take. And the highest value for the long term, my best comparison is Oprah. No matter how much money Kevin has, he aint got Oprah money. No matter how much money Donald Trump has, Donald Trump doesnt have as much money as Oprah does.

Chris Voss
And he started well ahead of her because Donald Trumps father was a very successful New York City real estate developer to begin with. Thats where Donald got his start and Oprah did not start from there. And Oprah’s highly collaborative. And Oprah’s not a pushover. There ain’t anybody bragging about how they got the Oprah hand on Oprah anywhere. So I think the collaborative negotiation is ultimately your best chance of success.

Logan Shinholser
Next, we talked about how the idea of having a lot of proposals out right now with prospects is not always the best scenario and how to actually figure out if you’re going to be the clients vendor of choice for their project.

Chris Voss
Yeah. Yeah. If you don’t know who the fool in the game is, it’s probably you. You can put a lot of proposals out until you start asking people very specific questions. So look at the profile of the circumstances and then it tends to start to jump out at them in a really big way. Having a lot of proposals out is psychologically gives you a feeling of safety and you figure the more mud you throw at the wall, you know, the more it’ll stick. But after a while, if you begin to take a look at the circumstances of the proposal, was it somebody you did business with in the past? How did you get involved in making a proposal with in the first place?

Chris Voss
If you’d have just, if anybody were to take a small look at some of the demographics, is this, are you the competing bid and, or did you have, is there a reason for them to pick you before you put the proposal out? As soon as you start asking people to take a hard look at just a few slight profile demographics of the circumstances, it becomes glaringly obviously that you were the competing bid. Now do you have to be the competing bid? Why? How much time did you put into that? We’ve got a fair amount of data that suggests that regardless of the industry and the contracting industry is no exception, at least 20% of those opportunities. You were the fool in the game. You were never going to get it.

Chris Voss
You were the competing bid and there was no reason you were going to get it. So what would happen if you just stopped wasting time on that 20%? You don’t have to get better at anything. You just put more time into the proposals that. Where you’re not the fool in the game and suddenly your hourly rate has just increased by no less than 20%. You’re making yourself 20% more money by not spinning your wheels. So all I would ever ask anybody to do is run your own data. Look at, ask yourself the questions. Have I ever. The proposal I have. Have I ever done business with these people? Who’s the referral? How did I get referred into this? How did I find out about it? Let me give me an imaginary number of one to five on the strengthen the referral.

Chris Voss
If there is 01:00 a.m. I, am I being brought in by trusted advisor? Am I trusted by the trusted advisor? You start looking at just a few simple demographics and, you know, don’t do any less proposals to start off with. But then ask yourself in your gut, you know my gut instinct. Am I the favorite of the fool here? Just your gut instinct. Go and do everything the way you’re doing it now. I promise you, in a year from now on, the ones that your gut was that you were the fool, you will have gotten none. If extremely low percentage of those on the ones that your gut was telling you were the favorite, you’re going to find your batting average was extremely high. Now, the next year. Or you could do this quarterly if you wanted to.

Chris Voss
As soon as you start having faith in your own gut, ask yourself what you could do with that time if you got it back. What would happen if you stopped knocking yourself out on the proposals where you were the fool in the game? How much would you improve your business? How much could you go to your suppliers and make your own better deals? How much could you work on getting more referrals from the people that you were the favorite with and increase your referral pipeline and the strength of your referral pipeline just by not being a fool in the game and wasting your time on it anymore?

Logan Shinholser
And it’s very common in the contracting space where there’s this mantra of, you got to get three bids. And I don’t really know where that ever came from, but it’s, I mean, at this point, 2023, like it has been around for generations. So with that in mind, if you’re in this proposal, you know, process currently, how do you figure out if you are the preferred vendor here?

Chris Voss
Well, ask yourself questions. You know, is there a previous relationship with who you’re submitting the proposal for? What’s the reason that you could find out whether or not you got invited to submit? You can ask that. That’s a legitimate, genuine question going into it. There’s a number of ways. You know, you know, how is it that you’re interested in us? What’s the reason that you want us to be involved? They’re going to give you answer that’s going to give you a feeling in your gut as to whether or not it’s good or bad, and you got to interpret it from your gut. You’re going to interpret one of three places. Whenever you’re interpreting anything, there’s your gut, your heart, and your head. Your head is where your fear centers are, where your amygdala is, where you see things working out wrong.

Chris Voss
That’s where you lack experience. That’s it’s designed to be negative. That’s your survival mode. That’s your head, your heart. What do you hope for? And you got to watch out for what your heart is hoping for on proposals, too, because, well, I hope I’m the favorite. Like, you know, they should pick me. Yeah, I don’t know. Your gut. What’s your gut tell you? And a lot of times I ask myself that specific question, I will say to myself, what’s my gut telling me here? Because your gut is a ridiculously powerful supercomputer that assesses your experiences appropriately. And the more you ask yourself what your gut is telling you versus what am I afraid of, what am I concerned about, or what do I hope for? Your gut gets more and more accurate.

Chris Voss
So just start asking yourself for your gut feeling on it, and you’ll get a good feeling.

Logan Shinholser
We spent a lot of time talking to Chris about how to negotiate with prospects and with vendors, but the reality is, that’s not the only. Only people that we’re negotiating with. A lot of contracting companies are family run businesses. And just like in family life, not everyone sees eye to eye. So we asked Chris, how do you negotiate in business when you’re working with.

Chris Voss
Family, emotions run highest on whether or not people feel involved, collaborated with, and heard. They don’t really trigger in when the decisions are made unless they haven’t been hurt. Like a father and a son, one or the other is not listening to the other, just making the decisions. And in many ways, I’ve probably been guilty of that in the past myself, because my son was very involved in my business, and he just decided to go out on his own and strike, sort of make his own mark in the world. And I’m sure that there are a lot of times that he would bring proposals to me, and I just go like, no, we’re not doing that. So I was probably guilty of not hearing him out a number of ways. And that’s frustrating for any human being, let alone an independent entrepreneur.

Chris Voss
And if you’re talking about contracting businesses, which are pretty much by definition, independent entrepreneurs, if you got a father and a son, each of them’s curse is they’re very much like one another. You know, they’re independent, they don’t like being told no, or they don’t like having anybody having any veto power over them, no matter how often a veto comes up, like I did. I rarely vetoed my son’s recommendations, and I still did. And each one of those, you know, probably just off the top of my head, might gun. And thing is like, no, we’re not doing that. And I turn it down without hearing them out. I’m sure I was guilty of that plenty of times, especially with family. These are people that you’ve got a much longer history with and who each of you have wounded one another inadvertently.

Chris Voss
And you’re completely oblivious in family when you’ve wounded them because you’re exposed to them so much more. So that’s the real challenge with family. However long you’ve been associated with one another, your time together compressed and condensed, and consequently, the accidental wounds are there that you were oblivious to. And the other side is still stinging from something. And if you knew what it was, you, number one, you’d apologize and you’d make amends. You’d probably be shocked by it, but you just don’t know. And that’s one of the hard things about having family and businesses. The amount of times we’ve inadvertently wounded each other and then also the number of times we’re just not hearing each other out. Neither of those things have to do with what the final decision was. It has much more to do with how we got to the final decision.

Logan Shinholser
So when you’re in a situation with a spouse or a son or father or daughter, whoever it is in the business, and there’s a larger decision that needs to be made, what is the best approach to come to that decision in your mind?

Chris Voss
You know, just make sure that each of you summarize the other. This is fully as completely in any. Any emotion laden decision, whether it be family or, you know, God, anything. If you know in advance, you’re probably not going to agree with the other person. A great way to start out with is, you know, before I disagree, I want to make sure that I completely understand where you’re coming from. So as far as I can tell, here’s what you want, and here’s why you want it, and here’s how your thinking got to that phase. When somebody feels completely hurt out, the answer from them is always, that’s right. It’s not. Yes. It’s not. No, and it’s not your right. Summarize the other person, how they feel about it, what’s driving them, what they think is important. There’s no agreement whatsoever on your side.

Chris Voss
What it is making the other side know that they’ve been heard. It’s remarkable how collaborative people are, once they feel heard, there’s actually a lot of neurochemistry behind it. And one of the neurochemicals that people who feel completely heard receive on their own is serotonin, which is the neurochemical of satisfaction. If you want somebody to be satisfied with the process increases the chances that they’re satisfied with the decision. So the act of making someone feel heard actually goes a long way to solving problems that are really just about. And I don’t know that you know my reasoning. How do I know? How can you make this decision unless I know you know my reasoning? Well, how you know it is, I repeat it back to you.

Logan Shinholser
As one of our keynote speakers at the new era of contracting virtual summit, I asked Chris, what does the new era of negotiation look like to you?

Chris Voss
I think it really is about using empathy, bringing tactical empathy into the negotiation process, taking emotional intelligence, neuroscience, and the two are more and more intertwined the more we learn about neuroscience, and we just didn’t have it 1520 years ago. The majority of the negotiation books that were written before neuroscience existed, as backing up what emotional intelligence, gut instinct, what that was telling us, but we just didn’t know. We had a lot of books out there getting t’s, which is very academically rigorous. But human beings are not academically rigorous. You know, we’re emotion based, and we’re very much in a world where the recognition of emotions is being interplayed in our decision making is now out there. There’s very little denying it.

Chris Voss
Even when I left the FBI back in 2007, 2008, and I’m working on a master’s program at Harvard, I remember telling a number of my colleagues that you can’t make a decision without emotions. Like, actual decisions are completely interwoven with emotions. And I remember that, no, it’s not like I’m getting attacked like crazy, and I’m like, no. Which then is sort of an indicator that I’m on the right track. But I have a very distinct memory of two people that I thought were very rational, very successful, which meant, I thought that they would see emotional intelligence as being critical to every aspect of their lives, and they angrily denied it. And I think the new era is where, like, this has become undeniable, and more people are recognizing success with it.

Chris Voss
And I think that’s very much the new era of negotiations or business life in general. Negotiations are a help and a hindrance, and not just a hindrance.

Logan Shinholser
If you want to hear more from Chris and other speakers and learn, really, the art of negotiation. Be sure to join us at the new era of contracting virtual summit on January 24 and 25th. Click the link in the description, check out what’s going on with the event. Get your tickets and we’ll see you there.